Episode 8- Alternative Business Models with Amelia Ahl
In this episode, we sit down with Amelia Ahl to discuss what a cooperative is (and isn’t) and how to keep yourself a priority to avoid burnout, and she introduces us to all things B Corp Certification. Amelia is an expert in regenerative practices for individuals, organizations, and communities in service of an economy that benefits all stakeholders and the planet. This conversation is one for the books, full of inspiration and comfort on any step of the entrepreneurial path.
Where to connect with Amelia on the internet:
Episode Key Moments:
What made you decide to start your own business?
The ethos of cooperatives.
The radical departure.
Educating people about the principles of cooperative business.
The importance of community and self-care.
How to take care of yourself.
What is a regenerative mindset, and why is it important?
A regenerative mindset prioritizes internal cycles.
What is B Corp certification?
The process of B Corp certification.
Advice for solopreneurs.
Episode Transcript:
Daniella Allam: Hey everyone, welcome to the podcast again. I am so excited for our guests today. Her name is Amelia Ahl and I'd love to introduce her to you. So Amelia is the co-founder of Hphya Collective, a worker-owned Co-Op that advises on democratic management and governance, team building and communication and B Corp certification. She currently also oversees impact management and measurement at The Builders Fund, which is an impact investing fund focused on system-responsible businesses and food and agriculture, health and wellness, decarbonization, and clean tech. She has a background in humanitarian work and international development, which fueled her interest in regenerative business and an MBA in sustainability from Presidio Graduate School. And she's also a graduate of Lift Economies' next economy MBA program, which fosters a community of people building systems that benefit all life. We love that. Born and raised in Dakota Land, which is Minneapolis, Minnesota, she has traveled and lived on the east coast of the US and in Spain before landing in Oakland, where she calls home. We're super excited to have you, Amelia. Welcome.
Amelia: Thank you. Well, thank you, Daniella. I'm so happy to be here.
Daniella Allam: So I really look to you as as an expert in this whole idea of regenerative business. So I know that our conversation is going to be really, really juicy today. And hopefully our listeners, our listeners will learn a lot. But I hope to learn a lot as well from you, because I always do anyway. But before we get into that kind of juicy Convo, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what made you decide to start your own business. A lot of the folks listening are entrepreneurs either starting or have started their, their own businesses. So what was that journey like for you, and what made you decide to do it in a worker-owned cooperative fashion?
Amelia: Well, I guess, it's important to note that I am very fiercely independent. For better or for worse, I come from a line of very creative, independent thinkers. My parents are both artists and musicians, and have kind of always done their own thing marched to the beat of their own drum, my dad is a literal drummer. So that's kind of knows reference. But I grew up kind of seeing like, you can actually make a really beautiful life for yourself if you create it on your own terms. And there's a lot of challenges that come along with that. But it's also kind of just been like the the best way that I know how So being an entrepreneur and doing my own thing has kind of, I think was like imbued in me from a very early age. And I like the creative aspect of it. The problem-solving aspect of it, though, like, no two days are exactly the same. I really thrive off of that kind of having to adapt and think on my feet. I think more recently, the path that brought me to cooperatives and to to organizations that share power, more democratically with less hierarchy was just like learning about and really understanding how our current system is set up in a totally opposite way. And how our current system is really making most people suffer. It's not allowing people to meet their own needs. We're really dependent on jobs that tend to like suck the energy and then out of us and not really give us that much in terms of resources in return. And so I think my sense of independence has kind of morphed from being more about me as an individual over time to being more about like, creating something in community with people that is actually like have has a shared vision and has more people involved in it. And so that was really the like, the origin story of Hypha collective. And how how we built it as a group, it was like, it wasn't just one person's vision or idea. And we've drawn inspiration from like, collective decision making, which for a lot of people seems like a totally wild and unheard of thing to do. And the first time you do it, yeah, it can feel that way. Because you've never done it before. But then once you start to actually operate more collectively and take care of each other, the the feelings of that brings the benefits of that has has is really powerful. So I guess, yeah, my, my journey started as like, I just I like to be independent. I don't want to have a boss necessarily, and I want to be able to do my own thing. And then has morphed into more like, oh, we can do we can go further if we do things together. Benefits, just like me striking out as an individual. Mm hmm.
Daniella Allam: Well, now that we've started talking about the cooperative, I'm really fascinated by that. Right? Because I think a lot of people when they hear the word cooperatives, they think like a hippie supermarket, right? Or they, they they have certain things that they think of when they when they hear that term. But you have really sort of expanded that for me. So I would love to hear from your perspective, like how can we define a co-op? And why should more businesses, across industries and across services? Think about structuring themselves in that way?
Amelia: Yes, I think you're the vision that you shared is totally accurate, people tend to hear the word co-op. And they'll either be like, I don't really know what that is. Or they'll be like, Oh, it's like the crunchy granola, food co-op that I know, my mom shopped at when I was younger, or something. But a co-op is actually a legal structure and also like a management structure a way to operate a business. And at its essence, it's an organization that's owned by the people who use its products and services or by the workers. So it's a real departure from like a traditional ownership structure where there's like a person or a small team at the top that owns the business, a co-op is really owned by the workers and by the people who the business is intended to benefit. CO costs have existed for a very, very long time. And they exist across basically any industry. So it doesn't just have to be in food. And in agriculture, which is where we most commonly tend to hear about coops but they could be in the arts, they could be in childcare or other home care, credit unions, health care, housing, insurance, it could be it's kind of sector agnostic. And coops operate under seven basic principles, which I think are useful to share. You don't need to memorize them. They're easily Googled online. But it kind of gives you a sense of like, what the ethos of coops is. Number one is voluntary and open membership. So it's open to whoever wants to join, and it's voluntary, it's not required. Number two is Democratic member control. So meaning the organization is controlled. Each member gets one vote, it's not, you know, it's how democracy is intended to function. Number three is economic participation of members. So people can contribute to and benefit from the economics of the business, everybody gets that not just at the highest level. Number four is autonomy and independence. So the organization's have, you know, make their own decisions. They're autonomous. Number five training and information. So there tend to be learning organizations, they tend to share information and resources internally, as well as externally which feeds into number six, which is one of the most commonly kind of cited principles, which is cooperation among cooperatives. And I think this is one where you really see a departure from like, the more business as usual norm of like the individualism like we we tend businesses tend not to collaborate with each other because they're like, that's gonna be that's gonna affect my bottom line. But coops, by definition are set up to be collaborative, to share resources to share ideas to if they're going out to to purchase goods and services, they're probably going to purchase them first from another cooperative, if and when possible. So there's a really strong sense of community and solidarity, which is really, like beautiful and I think really lacks in another in other more traditional context. And then the last one is concern for community, which I think dovetails nicely with the one I was just speaking about. But yeah, coops don't just care about their own members, but they care about the wider communities that they're a part of. And so they're really taking like a bigger, a bigger picture, mindset and approach to how they do business.
Daniella Allam: Mm hmm. So you kind of touched on this a little bit, but like, why is this such a radical departure from the norm? And, and as an addition to that question is, it almost seems to me like cooperatives have like a brand awareness problem, right? If so many people just associate them with one thing, or they don't know what they are, or they don't even understand that they could structure their businesses in that way. Why do you think that is also? Right? So it's kind of two questions and one?
Amelia: Yeah, so I think it's a Yeah, it's a radical departure. Because, again, the cops are orienting more around a systems view. And around this, these ideas of collaboration and of sharing, of sharing power, and therefore sharing resources, specifically wealth. So I think it's like, there's kind of a cool paradox here, which is like coops can and do exist and really thrive in our current economic system. And at the same time, they hold a vision of like, what comes next? And what the potential is, if, if these types of structures were more, were implemented more at scale? So I think one thing I keep seeing now, there's a lot of very similar challenges that businesses that entrepreneurs are facing across the board, we're seeing like the quote unquote, worker shortage. Like we can't find enough workers actually, there's, in my opinion, there's plenty of workers, but there's not enough organizations offering really meaningful employment, like viable employment and helping workers meet their needs. So that's why we're seeing this shortage. There's rising costs and inflation. And then there's a lot of like, the the social and political risks or reputational risks of businesses are increasingly on the line in terms of like, how are you showing up in your political sphere in your local community? are you advocating for things if you are or not, there's always an inherent risks involved, and how your customers are going to see and perceive you. So co-op structures, help can help address a lot of these challenges by taking a different approach. So you're not going to come across the same type of worker shortage challenges because your entire company as a cop is owned by the workers. So they have an inherent stake in the business operating well, and operating well over the long term. And then each of the members having economic success, as well as the overall business having economic success, so you kind of adjust the worker shortage, thing that way. And similarly, with rising costs and inflation, if you're using the collective imagination, creativity, entrepreneurial-like spirit of of all of your workforce, you can be really strategic in terms of like, how are we? How are we managing or funds? Power? Are we bringing money in the door? What are we spending costs on obviously, we can just as an organization, you can do away with inflation or fix it on your own, but you can play a small role in it. And similarly, and I think with the like the reputational risks, when you have an organization built off of community collaboration off of a sense of collectivism, you're going to be reducing your risk, because you're already having those What if conversations, you're already having to get alignment within your your team. And so yeah, maybe those things might take more time and attention early on, but then you're reducing your risk later on as your business grows as you become more public, as you gain more of a following. So I think I think the, the Yeah, the radical departure piece. While while there's a lot of differences, I tend to think about them really as benefits, or as ways to to address like some of the most pressing needs that businesses are facing now. And so that kind of connects to your question about the marketing, the marketing crisis, or the marketing of the coop movement. I definitely think that that is the case. That's Something that like my team at Hypha Collective, we want to do our part to address. We, you know, we really believe like the collaboration amongst coops is very important, but also that we all need to be doing our part to connect into the wider world. And so with Hypha, we we believe, like, we work with partners, if they want to, if a business wants to convert into a co-op, we'll support that process, we'll go through like a financial and a culture assessment to see if it's a good fit, we talk to everybody. That's a service that we offer. But we like to think about democratic structures and collectivism in general as a spectrum. And so we think that some organizations might just benefit from a little bit smaller changes to their internal structure into how they communicate as a team, and to how they give feedback and make decisions and share more that soft power internally. So we think that
Daniella Allam: oh, that's really interesting
Amelia: can benefit from that, and you start to use some of those cooperative or collective principles, but you wouldn't necessarily need to change your legal structure. Now, in general, there's, you're going to be able to like to ensure that those practices will continue longer term, if you do change the legal structure. But culturally, you can make a big shift as well without taking that that legal and financial leap. And so I think this all kind of gets to the idea of coops and the kind of the ethos behind copps needing to expand beyond the confines of like, just legally, more businesses. So the ways that we talk about it, it doesn't have to be, it's not just either you're in or you're out, because that tends to really exclude people to say like, if you don't go through the legal process, then you can operate collectively, really any organization can operate more collectively, regardless of their legal structure. And can can reap the benefits of it. So I think that it's it's going to require more, more companies going through the conversion, more companies, just learning about what coops are, in general, and starting to see, like more successful examples of them in multiple industries. And I think that will, will kind of help address some of the some of the like, opacity and the, like, uncertainty that exists right now around like, what does this even mean? This podcast for?
Daniella Allam: Yeah, starting with educating people, right. And I think that seems to be such an important piece, right? Because that's news to me as well, right? That there's ways that that companies even if they're not ready, right, they might not be ready, or they might not be structured in a way because of their funding, or just because for many reasons, right, where they're not able to go full in, that they're still able to dip their toe in and start to incorporate some of these principles and values into the ways that they run their businesses. Because it seems to me like this, this cooperative model, what what it kind of, and the ways of thinking, and this collective way of thinking, allows organizations and leaders and founders who are running these organizations, to more closely align that company with their own values, right, because I think more and more many of us feel right, like the pressures of capitalism feel the, the issues with with a highly individualistic culture and, and ways of running our economy. But oftentimes, folks are like, well, but I still gotta put money on the table, and I still got to, you know, make it work within this system. And to know that there's ways that you can start incorporating these these ideas and these principles on a, like a gradual basis, or as much as is helpful for you and your organization, I think is just a really interesting thought starter, right for everybody and every entrepreneur to think of but that kind of leads me to my next question, which is about like, what can people do that are running like a one person team, right? Like a one person team or like one and a half for like a two people team where there's like, not a lot of input, there's not you know, it's just a small business. How is there ways that that people can think about the these principles and this cooperative type model within a business that that that is that small in terms of people?
Amelia: Absolutely, yes. And I think this is a really good question. Because for me, I'm like, Yeah, this in order for this approach to be successful, exciting like for people to adopt it needs to be, there needs to be elements of it that are relevant, whether you're like a solopreneur, or you're part of a really large company. And, and I definitely think that it does apply. And there's, there's ways that you can think about that I really, I really like to ground a lot of my work in the idea of fractals, which is like, the the tiny, the smallest interactions, the way that you act, and like these micro-moments on a daily basis can ripple out and have an impact into like the who you are at a bit of a larger scale and how your organization runs. So, so you can focus on really little things. And, and over time, those accumulate into having a larger impact. So as like a, as an individual running your own business, I would say, think about what systems you operate in. So even if it's just you, or maybe you pay a couple of contractors to do some of your, like, really, most most necessary work, start to map out like Who Who am I collaborating with? Who am I communicating with? What services am I am I paying for? Or am I benefiting from? And and also, like who are the other folks in that community with it are like working in a similar space? Who have we have shared clients or we maybe would would otherwise be considered competitors. And then you can, you can kind of look at that system. And even I imagine that, like I've worked as an independent entrepreneur a lot. And even in that case, you still have a lot of folks that you are interacting with on a regular basis. So making sure that like those relationships are, like mutually beneficial, I think is a really good place to start. So if you're, you know, hiring firing someone like is, is are you able to pay them? Like a reasonable and competitive wage? Are you aware of what their needs are? I think just talking to people, and developing relationships where you have like a shared foundation of trust, and understanding is going to be really helpful. So then, you know, like, if something's going wrong, or if there's, if they're going through a difficult moment, they could, they would feel okay, letting you know, like, Hey, I'm going through a crisis or something. And those, those are, those are kind of, that kind of happens on an emotional level. But it starts to build a sense of community, even if you're alone, operating as like a solo entrepreneur. And I think that that's beneficial in terms of like securing your business needs, but it's also beneficial, because from my experience, I know it can be really lonely and really isolating, striking out on your own. I know, I imagine maybe you've had some of your own experience with that, because I know you've you're building your own business. And it can be Yeah, it can be lonely sometimes to do that. And you can feel like Oh, I I made a mistake that no one else has made. And I like why isn't this working for me the way I thought it would like, I thought I'd be making more money by now and I'm not. And so building a sense of community with with like, tears in your space and with people that are supporting your business is can be really helpful to feel like, Oh, I'm actually even though this is my company, I'm still part of something larger. So like, works of other entrepreneurs who can share resources. Like that's a really, that's, that's a very, like cooperative or collective approach that you could take as an individual person. And then you can you stand to gain a lot from something like that, but you also are gonna are gonna give something? And then yeah, like, where do you live and who's in your community, and what kind of things are happening there that need small business support, like that's a, you know, that's a really great way to show solidarity to get your name out there. So you get some kind of like, brand awareness. But you're also contributing to something meaningful, like, so my business we're based. We're most of us are based in the East Bay. And we, so we're service providers, and so we offer like, why not offer each each project that we do we add on a fee for land repatriation efforts, and most typically, we we divert those funds to Sogorea Te' Land Trust, which is a woman run Indigenous Land Trust in the Bay Area. And so we see ourselves as like, Okay, we're gonna operate our business here. We want to have a mutually beneficial exchange like we love and appreciate the community in the Bay Area. And we really see and honor the work that Sogorea Te' Land Trust is doing. And so in, we just divert a percentage of our project funds to that organization, we build it into our project cost. So it's, and then we talk about it with our clients. So we're helping to build awareness for what what their work is, and what it does. And we really see them as like strong community builders, and like web weavers. And so we like to support that. And that's just an example. But it could be whatever feels interesting and aligned and relevant for you and your work. I know you work with a lot of plant folks, and herbalists and so connecting with farmers connecting with like herb collectors, what a what organizations are in your community that are supporting those folks are the those folks are self-organized, organizing around like those can be really meaningful connections for your business on a number of levels.
Daniella Allam: So yeah, so it sounds like really the the answer to like, the solopreneur is really like community, right? And finding that sense, even if it's not within your business and the way you've structured your business, but but finding ways to kind of bring that sense, which seems to be so critical to this idea of this cooperative, right? Would you say like, in an ideal world, would everything be cooperative?
Amelia: Um, I think I tend to really, like think in more in like spectrums than in the binary. And so I feel like, I wouldn't say every business needs to be a cooperative. I think in an ideal world, every business would, would prioritize collective well-being. And so there's kind of a that's, that's a little distinction that I make, because I think you could, I think a vibrant, like, thriving economy could include a lot of solo entrepreneurs, it could include a lot of small businesses, it could include some, hopefully, not all huge companies. So I think variety is good, but what I think would be, like an ideal scenario is that all of those entities are thinking about where what their role is in the larger ecosystem, and taking accountability and responsibility for that. So it could be, it could be individuals.
Daniella Allam: Yeah. And plus, I mean, I think one part of collective well-being, and I think you've talked about this, in the past when it comes also to like burnout, but it's also self-care, right? Yeah, as a solo entrepreneur, sometimes that's one of the areas where most most of my clients, myself included, like we struggle with that, right? You, you give your business your all, but part of making sure that you're able to contribute to the collective is also being able to contribute to yourself and making sure right, like you're paying yourself equitably, that you're, you know, doing things that you really care about, and that are bringing the impact that you're really looking for. So, any thoughts on that?
Amelia: I have so many thoughts on that.
Daniella Allam: I know, You've written articles about this stuff. So I know you do.
Amelia: Yes, well, yes, I have experienced burnout. And it is such an intense phenomenon. And I have always been attracted to work that has a bigger purpose to it, that makes me feel it makes me feel good. Like I'm doing something with my life that I can, you know, be proud of, for the future generations to come if you choose to think on that timescale which. But I really see, like, individual solo entrepreneurs, and people in the working world in general, really struggling to care for themselves, to tend to their responsibilities and to care for others at the same time. It's like it's such a balancing act, and we're working. There's so many pressures, and so many of these habits we have are really ingrained. And so taking time for yourself is so important. And I think people like the pope burnout trend, or like awareness of burnout has really grown over recent years. And people are like, what can you do? Like, can you just take a break and take time off? And In my personal opinion is no, a vacation is not going to solve your burnout. Because burnout comes from habitual and like repetitive actions. And so if you just leave the scenario where you're getting burnt out, you come back to it refreshed. It's going to just the cycle will continue. So we have to actually develop a new cycle and this is where going back to the idea of fractals, this can be really helpful in terms of like a life design approach, like how am I, if my work in my business is intending to, like bring more access to more herbal medicine to people so that they can care for themselves? How do I embody that as on an individual level for myself in my own life on a day to day basis, like if I, if I can't pause to like, take care of myself, and really make time for that, then how, how effective Can I be in just trying to, like, make that available for other people. So I think, as hard as it is, and as like, frustrating as it is, I know, I have this tendency myself, I'm like, I'm going to look at, I'm going to look at things outside of me first, but really, it all starts inside of you. And it's all starts with you. And that's like a blessing and a curse. And because that's like, we actually can do something about that. Like,
Daniella Allam: yeah, and like we kind of have that, like, it's, it's, it's really up to us how we take care of ourselves, right. And sometimes that's hard, I think, for certain people to hear. But it reminds me, way back when in business school, I was like on a whitewater rafting trip in West Virginia. And we had a hilarious guide, who was who was drunk at 7am, who was like getting us ready to go on the rafts. And one of the things he said was like, if you fall in the water, you better know how to swim, because I ain't going in to catch you. Ain't nobody love you, like you love yourself. And nobody loves you, like you love yourself. Like, I'm not gonna go in there and risking my life to save you, like you better kind of have your own things. And that always stuck with me. And I say it to people all the time. Like ain't nobody loves you, like you love yourself as a reminder even to myself, right? Because we we tend to give and so many of us, especially people that are mission driven, especially people that want to have an impact in the world, through their products or their services, whatever it might be, that we focus, so externally on giving. But then we're surprised when we're like the ones drowning, right. And like, we gotta fill our own cup, we got to put on those rafters and, and be able to kind of get ourselves out of that. Because Because at the end of the day, like we got to love ourselves the most out of everyone in the world. And I think that kind of leads me to my next question, because I think it does.
Amelia: Before you do that, can you comment on that? Yeah. I love that phrase, like, ain't nobody gonna love you, like you love yourself. And I think that's a really good thing to return to, especially if you're trying to like, build new practices, like, no one's gonna do this for me, no one's gonna love me like this for me, like, I have to make it I have to carve out this time for myself, whatever it is, whatever little ritual and routine, but I have to do that on a regular basis. And I've heard this years ago, it's like, it's really stuck with me. It's like, we grew up, like I grew up hearing like, treat people how, how you want to be treated, but actually, it's more useful to treat people how they want to be treated. And like that. So like wanting to know how people want to be treated in order to do that. But how else can you do that? Except, like, model it ourselves. And so sometimes I think we need to show ourselves, we need to learn like if you have to do some, like self reflection and kind of a self assessment to be like, Well, what do I need? Like how do I want to love my best love myself, invest, treat myself and try different things out in order to see like, oh, this thing actually nourishes me versus this thing I thought I loved actually afterwards, I feel kind of anxious and kind of exhausted and like, no one can really answer those questions except for you. But it's important to like carve time out in your, in your busy schedule, because it's not like a separate thing. It's actually all connected, like, and I really believe the last thing I want to say about this is like I believe in the power of cycles and phases. And I think that's really missing from a lot of the working world now. Like we tend to never have a moment to pause and celebrate a job well done. work because we're so busy and overbooked. It's like as soon as something has finished, you're already like neck deep in the next project to the next day. 100 things happening at the same time. So there's a juggling phenomenon which people tend to get rewarded for because it's like, oh, you're doing so many things at once you're holding all these things at once. You're missing out on the benefit of the cycle. So if you think about the way human work has happened over history, we've really relied on cycles of like, work really, really hard and then benefit from the fruits of our labor like the literall fruits of our labor in agriculture and also in other things like you, you put in a lot of work, because you know, you're gonna benefit from it, you're gonna have this moment of like, ah, like, we did it, it's done. Now I get to feast, and then I get to rest. And then I get to start the next thing. And so even if we just go that energetically like, you pulled off a big event, or you signed a, you know, you finished a big contract or whatever, like, mark those moments and allow a little bit of space to, like, honor and celebrate them, because that is going to, it's gonna create energy that fuels like the ongoing cycle of your work.
Daniella Allam: And I love that. And I think that's even even more tied. Like if you're like somebody who like menstruates, right, and goes through, like the monthly cycles of, of energy and hormones all up in your body. And I think so many of us sometimes struggle with that, right. But once you once you start to lean in to these natural cycles of projects of our bodies of our lives, it, it makes things a lot easier. And I think just the point to drive home is that it has to be intentional, like, nobody's going to do it for you, the system, the corporation, you work for nobody, the your investors, nobody's going to say, I think you need to carve out more time for yourself, you know, this system is not wants you to do this. So it's really up to us. Because if you don't do it, nobody's gonna hand it to you. And, and that's part of one of the things I learned for myself is that it you kind of have to do it for yourself and set these firm boundaries around it for yourself as well. That you respect that time, as much as you would other things. And that's extremely difficult. But so, so important, and I think it, it leads to the topic. The next topic I want to talk about, which is this idea of a regenerative mindset. We've seen you know, the word regenerative, it feels like it's become like a buzzword, right? Like, it's everywhere. Everyone and their mother has a regenerative something, business buzz, whatever, whatever. And yet, you know, so so few, I think of us actually really understand what that means. So can you help us understand for you what is a regenerative mindset mean? And why is that something that is it could be helpful for for leaders of organizations or founders?
Amealia: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a question. Like my team at Hypha. When we asked ourselves this, sometimes we're like, has the word regenerative lost all meaning? And we've, Yeah, I mean, we still use it because it's feel, it's still useful for us. I would say like, the simplest definition, for me is thinking at a systems level, if you have a regenerative organization or operation, you're thinking at that system's level, and you're really thinking about cycles, like we were just talking about a lot of what our conversation today has already been, I think kind of feeds into the idea of, of a regenerative mindset. I think coops actually do a really good job of promoting a regenerative mindset through those seven principles that we talked about. And I think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of benefits to thinking in this way and to understanding like, endless growth and profit isn't just isn't like a viable system long term. So this has been said, and understood and known countless ways over a very long period of history. It's just being challenged by like our norms right now. But I think a regenerative mindset means like, you're preparing for the longer term, you're like, we really, we have this idea that we want to exist, and maybe it will evolve and change and can take some totally different form if it's still around in 50 or 100 or 200 years. But if it's if it's regenerative, it means it has that ability to, to be come to read to be reborn to read,
Daniella Allam: there's that re like, it's like a circle, right? It feels like the original is a circle. Yeah,
Amelia: it's a circle that keeps going but it could in different iterations turn into something else. So it's like maybe your maybe your business as it is now in 100 years will will collapse but maybe it wouldn't be sold to its workers if it's not a worker on co-op already, and then it would take on a new life. And if you have a regenerative mind means that you're like, I'm open to whatever that thing is. And, and yeah, I think it really also connects to this, this idea of like, how do we, how do we embody our values on like an individual level, like we were just talking about, I think a regenerative mindset looking inwards, prioritizes, those internal cycles, the, you know, your need for rest, your need for celebration and joy, like those things are all part of a healthy business cycle as much as periods of really hard, intense focus work. So like, there's room for all of those, I think if you take a regenerative mindset, and and I think you're we're starting to see, like, I've seen these really promising signs show up in that regard around organizational culture, like a lot of companies are, they do summer Fridays they do, the more people are doing a four day work week, and there's a lot of new research coming out that shows the looks at like productivity and says companies that that are implementing things like that are just as productive, they're maintaining or surpassing their levels they wanted to see, and people are working less like why, why did we? Why should we move towards everyone working more? Aren't we? Aren't we trying to get a little bit more free? And are
Daniella Allam: right and be more efficient? Right? If if productivity and efficiency is one of like the keystone of a capitalist system, then, you know, this should be something celebrated, right? How can we how can we do more or the same with less effort, less burnout, less attrition, right? All of these things that I think a lot of big companies, even small companies, I think are starting are starting to realize the impact of that both on an individual level, right, like if, if you're if your hope as an organization is to just be on this, you know, J curve, or this exponential growth curve. And that's what you expect from everybody. What what we're seeing is like what we're talking about, like it's, that's that's just a recipe for burnout, that's the recipe for people to actually not bring their most productive selves to work, because they if you don't have the time to, to rest to celebrate, you're just chasing after the carrot that's in front of you every single time. You can also see that like, the results are not going to be as good. And I think, you know, it's this reimagining that is hopeful to me of of our systems, like how can we get into a place where, where more and more companies and organizations and businesses are built with this in mind? And And most likely, these are businesses that are going to outperform like competitors that don't do it in that way, maybe long term. So there's clear benefits even to the to the current world order, right? Like if they kind of looked deeper at that.
Amelia: Yeah, yeah, I think there's absolutely the the, the benefits do not just extend to like your worker well being, which obviously has a direct connection to the the financial performance of a company, if all of your workers are really suffering, you're gonna suffer from high turnover from low productivity and from all these factors that are going to ultimately negatively impact your bottom line. But aside from that, you know, if we want to extend that out further, I think we're seeing a lot more companies financially outperform, who are thinking more strategically because we live in an interconnected world, we live in systems, whether we acknowledge it or not so So organizations that actually are proactive in thinking how they want to engage in that in those systems are going to be better placed more advantage in the longer term. So I think like those supply chains is a huge area where we're starting to see more intention and more like direct indirect interaction intervention, companies, most companies at least have some global footprint, in terms of whether it's your packaging, even if you're a service provider, and you're just using tech, your business is relying on people all around the world to to operate. And if you ignore or just, you know, take that for granted, then you're running a risk, ultimately Long Term versus if you're able to understand like, who are the who are the farmers at the source of my supply chain and what are like what is their quality of life and quality of earnings look like? Is this a viable business for them for for, you know, the next 10 years? What about for their the next generation? Is someone going to take over this business or are they not? Are they not getting paid a living wage in there? Are there children are going to go into, you know, look for a different, different opportunities. So those are those are yeah longer term questions, but preparing for them now and trying to answer them now it's going to mean that you'll be able to be prepared down the road, if you still want to be if you want to be relevant and
Daniella Allam: relevant and have a business, I think that that lasts, right or that stands at least some sort of test test of time. And I think I don't want to let you walk away without talking about another pet topic of yours and one that Hypha focuses on as well. And one that actually a lot of my clients who tend to be CPG founders wonder about a lot, and that is the B Corp certification. So can you tell us a little bit about what what B Corp is? Why should particularly businesses that are in the CPG space, but also could be general businesses? Why should they consider get getting that certification?
Amelia: Yes, so B Corp is a certification that is offered through a nonprofit called V lab. And it's offered at a global level, although it's tailored a little bit to each region. And the certification basically says like, as a company, we are committed to caring about all of our stakeholders, not just our shareholders, we're committed to the planet, we're committed to our employees, to our customers to the wider community. And in order to actually become B Corp certified companies have to make an amendment to their legal documents that claims that states that so that it that's called the mission lock. Yeah, we're, it's making it more formal, and solidifying that intention in the legal structure of your organization. So that exists long term, it's a designation for for-profit entities. And it's become increasingly popular, it's become increasingly well known on a consumer level. And it's, I think it's one of it's one of my favorite certifications, I've worked over the years with a lot of B corps. The Builders Fund, where I work now as a certified B Corp. And as part of our approach to responsible impact at the companies we invest in, we work with each of our investments to go through at least some part of the B Corp certification process, because we see it as a really helpful tool for, again, looking at from a systems view, like where what are we what do our operations include? What are all the the groups of people and the elements that we touch through our business model, and really understanding and questioning practices surrounding each of those. So we think it gives a really good holistic view of what an organization's impact is. And it can kind of inspire creativity and new ideas that you might not have thought of before when you actually go through the process. So that's one of that's one of the earliest benefits that I see in companies that I work with, who are getting B Corp certified is yeah, you got to go through and fill out the assessment. And you have to answer a lot of questions. And it takes time, you have to fill you collect all the documents and collect all the data, go into the portal online and answer a bunch of questions. So it's definitely a time commitment. It is resource intensive in that regard. And immediately, once you start to fill out the assessment, it's going to have it will suggest bookmarks to you like you want to come back to this question. And you can start to form a list of things that you're inspired by that you think would have would be most impactful for your business to adopt, whether it's policies or internal practices. And so that's, that's kind of an early stage benefit that any company could get from just going through the assessment. So maybe just to zoom out for a second, like the process of B Corp certification is step one on online, you fill out the B impact assessment, that's what I was just referring to. And that touches on all those categories of business, from governance, to workers, to community to supply chain, etc. Then you get paired with an analyst from B lab, and they will ask you to verify some of those things. So you'd have to actually submit say you had a like, you know, sustainable sourcing policy that you answered, Yes, we have that they're gonna say, Hey, we want to see a copy of the policy? So they're doing like third-party verification? and you go through a little bit of back and forth with that, you get approval, ultimately, when you get approval, then you have to do the legal requirement, which depends on your business entity type and what state you're registered in. So not going to get into the details of that. But you go, you make the legal change, saying our business commits to caring about all stakeholders. And then you pay a fee based off of your revenues. And then you get certified. So a lot of CPG brands that I've worked with, and that I've seen are using B Corp certification as a really powerful tool to connect with consumers. I was mentioning earlier, like I had been tracking a lot of the research that's happening, there's growing, there's real growing consumer awareness of the B Corp Certification, specifically in North America. And for consumers who are aware of it, they're like, they have a really deep trust. Like, if they see that on your label on the shelf, they're like, oh, it's kind of it tells a lot of information just with a simple little B on the logo. So there's a there's a high level of trust. Because I think folks know that there's some rigor that goes that's required of going through the process. So companies that actually do that, they have to have a high level of transparency with the lab, they have to be really committed and dedicated, and show that they are thoughtful and intentional about their all of their business practices, and that their business actually has intended environmental and social purpose.
Daniella Allam: right. Yeah, because we did definitely do see that, like, you know, I've seen that in research through throughout my career that people more and more, and we're seeing it more and more, right, like, it's just in that trend of, of consumers wanting to support brands and products that are aligned with their values, big markers of that tend to be certifications, right, whether it's B Coro, it's Organic, whether it's this or that is that there is like a tangible consumer benefit to that. And I think what, you know, maybe some of the downsides that founders might see, to something like B Corp, is that yes, it is cumbersome. Yes, it is resource intensive, yes, you do have to do a lot of work that maybe you didn't think you had to do, but that there's like a real tangible benefit on the other side of it from from a consumer perspective, because they can trust that you've done that due diligence. And you're not just saying, because we're also seeing consumers, more and more, right? Get smarter about claims about things people say about brands, right? Like, if you're a because everybody has really everybody, right? Like some of these words, you know, like sustainability, some of these words like, rich or whatever, like be they get utilized, and sometimes misutilized. And I think, you know, me as a as a marketer, like, we tend to do that, right? We tend to use whatever words we can for the sake of selling these products. But then what that's doing over time is It's eroding consumer confidence in that, like, is this really natural? Like, is this really better for me? Is this really a company that cares about this? Or are they just saying that, right, and I think these certifications can can can really help consumers differentiate like, what's what's talk and what I want to talk plus walk, and,
Amelia: and even employees too so B Corp is, has been shown to have a strong correlate correlation with employee retention. And this interesting identification process really digs into what are your employee practices? How are you treating people in terms of payment in terms of benefits, paid time off? Conflict Resolution, whistleblower policies, all of those things, you really have to dig into and, and reach a certain threshold of in order to get certified and so people tend who've worked at the courts tend to prefer that and they might, they're gonna stick around longer and often, someone who's worked at a B Corp will go on to work at another B Corp. So there's kind of a that like employee loyalty. That is another benefit, especially if you're your business, it's a little bit larger that has like a significant employee base.
Daniella Allam: So do you have any advice for for again, like solopreneurs or one-person teams that want to get going with B Corp is like is the best thing to just do the assessment and just use that maybe as like a roadmap, are there resources you think would be helpful? What can like small scale folks do? Is there anything they can do with B Corp?
Amelia: Yes, there is. And this is something that B Corp is working on. They're aware of kind of the barriers to entry for the process for smaller companies, and especially for women run and BIPOC run companies. And so there's actually a new program that I think is in its second cohort now that is run by B Lab, that it's called the Level Program. And that is for female BIPOC female founders, they will pair you with a B Corp consultant, free of charge, who will facilitate the entire certification process for you now this is a program you have to apply to you have to qualify, so your company has to be majority BIPOC Female run, so it only, you know is only applicable to companies like that. But if that's you, this is a really good opportunity, and definitely something you should look into. So you would get free of charge, certifications, support and guidance throughout the whole process. There's, if that's not you, but you still want to do it and you want some extra support. There are a lot of B Corp consultants out there who will offer services kind of out of range of prices, at a range of like higher touch too low touch depending on what you want. So my business has a collective we offer B Corp, consultation services, and we can offer you like if you want us to do the whole thing, leave you out of it fine, if you want to, to kind of train you, and do it alongside you. so that you can do it the next time when you recertify we can do that as well. And then if you're like I just want to do it myself, what I would say as a good first step is carve out the time, put it on your calendar and and at least just do the preliminary B impact assessment online. Any business can do it, there's no cost associated. And right now it will deliver you a preliminary score. And so you can see if the threshold right now is 80 points, you can do a preliminary walkthrough, you don't have to answer every question, but you'll see what's up? What's that first score look like? Is it is it close to 80 points, if so, you're probably in like a decent place to be able to go through the process and get certified. If you're really far off from 80. Maybe it's not a good time for you to go through this and to dedicate the time to do it. But if you put, you know, put three to five hours on your calendar in order to go through the first that first assessment that will give you some good information to go off of. And finally, I would just say like, it's not again, it's not like a one-size-fits-all all tool. It's not the best tool for everybody. I don't recommend it for companies that are in like year one or two of operations. I don't recommend it for companies that aren't bringing revenue in, definitely even even if you're like you want to at least be like breaking even. So it's yeah, if you're like a total startup, it's probably not the best time and I would just kind of bookmark it for for later on in your growth process.
Daniella Allam: That's really helpful. That's really helpful. Because I think a lot of people are like, this will be great, but then maybe they don't, they're not ready for it yet. Right. And and that's totally okay. But maybe you just by looking at this website, looking at some of the things required, it'll get you inspired as you go along in your journey, but we've sort of reached the and this was when so quickly, we learned so much. Tell us Amelia, where can folks find you and find Hypha and work with you?
Amelia
Yes. So Hypha collective.co is our website is spelled H yp h a like the edges of the mycelial network. And on our website you can get in touch and we do free-of-charge coping calls, Intro calls if you want to connect and talk through a project that you have in mind. And you can also contact me directly on LinkedIn. Just send me a message. I think you have the link to my LinkedIn but it's just
Daniella Allam: yeah, that'll these will be in the show notes so you can definitely check Amelia and Hypha Collective out if you have any questions she posts relatively regularly, I think often so there can be some fun education for folks there who are really just starting out in these journeys of collective well being. Yes, get the hot takes from Amelia well Well thank you so much Amelia and maybe there'll be a part two to this one day we'll see
Amelia; I would love that. thank you Daniela it was really nice to chat and take care.