S2 E5- A Conversation with Maddie Hamann, Co-founder and Director of Marketing at PACHA
In this episode, Daniella sits down with Maddie Hamann, who transitioned from a PhD in oceanography to founding an organic buckwheat bread company focused on regenerative agriculture, PACHA. Maddie shares her journey from academia to entrepreneurship, highlighting her passion for sustainability and how she and her partner overcame initial hesitations to launch their business. They discuss the marketing challenges, the importance of sustainable packaging, and their persistence in securing Whole Foods distribution. The conversation also covers the significance of regenerative agriculture, the impact of buckwheat as a cover crop, and the difficulties of educating consumers about the benefits of sustainable practices. Maddie emphasizes the need to align values with actions and the potential for big brands to lead in consumer education about regenerative farming.
Where to connect with Maddie on the internet:
Website | Instagram | LinkedIn
EPISODE KEY MOMENTS:
Transitioning from academia to entrepreneurship.
PACHA's focus on regenerative agriculture and sustainable practices.
Launching a business with multiple co-founders during the pandemic.
Overcoming marketing challenges and lack of foundational knowledge.
Securing production facility and Whole Foods distribution with improved product.
Compostable packaging and aligning with a sustainability mission.
Buckwheat's role as a regenerative cover crop.
The challenges of educating consumers on regenerative agriculture benefits.
Episode Transcript:
Daniella Allam: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Plantas Pod. I am so excited for our guest today. Maddie Hamann, the director of marketing of PACHA. So welcome to the podcast Maddie!
Maddie: Thanks so much, Daniella.
Daniella Allam: So let me intro Maddie a little bit and then we'll get started with our juicy convo. I'm very excited to hear about Maddie's background and PACHA as a company, which if you don't know, is an organic buckwheat bread that is distributed nationwide. So if you haven't tried it, it's time to try it. But Maddie is the co founder and the director of marketing for PACHA and she has always followed her passion for stewarding the planet, which led her through a PhD in oceanography into the world of consumer packaged goods. She's on a mission now to use regenerative organic buckwheat bread to bring health to the people and to the planet through regenerative agriculture. Again, this is so exciting to talk to you welcome, Maddie to the podcast. And I wanted to ask you first like I think the most obvious question, how does somebody that have a PhD in oceanography go to founding an organic buckwheat Bread Company?
Maddie: Yeah, it's a great question. So yeah, I, you know, I grew up in Ohio. And I, I was always, I was always really interested in the, like, the studies of the earth and climate science. And I, coming out of college, I got a degree in civil engineering. And I just knew that I didn't want to be somebody who was like, building highway overpasses and like, stuck in a city, I just, I knew that I my passion laid with the earth and doing work that would help humanity to become a sustainable species on our planet. And so I thought that, you know, coming from the Midwest, where we don't study the ocean very much, I was like, oh, man, I should study the ocean. And I'm sure that like knowing more about how our climate and ocean system interacts, will help like to work on this problem of sustainability. Like we need to OBOR to be able to make informed decisions. And I, you know, probably around year three of my PhD, I was starting to be like, huh, we know an awful lot about this. And yeah, I decided to finish my PhD just because like, I started it, and it was something to, to push through. But I by the end of by the end of my PhD, I was pretty clear that I wasn't going to be following a traditional academic route, because it didn't seem that knowing more about our planet, and the science behind climate change was really changing the the actions of people on the planet. So I knew that I was not going to be doing like a faculty job, continuing to just research. And I met my partner, my business partner and my life partner. His name's Adam Heiner. Towards the end of my PhD, and he has he's a serial entrepreneur.
Daniella Allam: I did a little research about him Yeah.
Maddie: I like to joke now that he's like, literally, a pseudo serial entrepreneur. Buckwheat is a pseudo cereal. So but he so he's, he's founded multiple companies, including Boochcraft. And at the time that I met him, he was working with the impact department of Boochcraft. So he was doing all of the like working with sourcing from regenerative farms and see like, figuring out ways that Boochcraft could spend their 1% for the Planet budget to make a difference with with climate change. And I was like, just observing what he was doing. And then about a year into our relationship, he was we, I guess I should say, this bread, like it was a part of our relationship from the beginning. I hadn't eaten bread for years. And then I met Adam, and on that same weekend that I met him he had a version of this bread that he shared with me and I was like, what? I can eat this and it's delicious. It doesn't taste like chalky cardboard.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, like so many gluten free breads out there. Yeah.
Maddie: And so yeah, so about a year into our relationship he was the wheels were starting to turn then like he was like, I think we need to bring this bread to the world like, people, people were asking us for it, we were making it at our home. And like people were asking us to make like 20 loaves for their Thanksgiving feast and that kind of thing. It was like, All right, people want this. And so for him as the serial entrepreneur, he is he was starting to think about, okay, how can we do this? What would the what would the strategy be? How could we source our buckwheat regeneratively and make a real impact with a different company, like with Boochcraft, he had other founders who weren't as as interested in the regenerative agriculture piece as he is. Not to say that they're not interested in doing good things for the world. But he's just really invested in it. Right? And yeah, and he started thinking about this business. And I, even though I was like, working in science and feeling like, Oh, I just got this PhD, I should like, do something with it, my heart was just pulled. Like, every time he would talk about it, I was like, I want to be a part of this. I just, I just want to be part of this. And so I jumped ship,
Daniella Allam: left the academic world for the world of consumer packaged goods. Exactly what a journey. I think that's so unique. You know, I don't know if I've ever met any, do you find that there's things that you've learned in your PhD that help you? Or is it like, completely, totally, like a totally new book, a new chapter? And you kind of started all over? Or were there things from that science background that have transferred?
Maddie: Yeah, it's a little bit of both. Like, certainly, I learned an incredible depth of knowledge about a topic that is not relatable to most things. However, you know, like I have, I have a basic physics background. So there's like, certain things even in our process, we have this cool machine that rinses our buckwheat, and just having an understanding of like, fluid mechanics, and how that, how that might work. Yeah, problem-solving on the production floor is more possible for me. The other thing is that really like my PhD, I. I actually designed my own experiment. So I like, got a grant, and I designed an experiment. And I went out on a ship, and I collected my data. And then I analyzed it for my thesis and like, all the steps of getting that data are just basically administration, like, organizing people writing, you know, writing grants, etc. So all of that is just like, yeah, there's a clear crossover.
Daniella Allam: Yeah.
Maddie: But then on the other side of things, like in on this side of things, being a marketer is totally different than being a scientist, or at least a PhD student, right? Like, totally different. function in a different way. So
Daniella Allam: yeah, and what like, yeah, so what has been that experience? Like, I guess, of going into into marketing, what do you like about it? And what is maybe more challenging? About about the marketing realm?
Maddie: Um, well, I think so. With regards to the transition, I just felt like I had no idea what I was doing. So kind of the first few years of just like, okay, like, I'm studying, I'm learning, I'm reading blogs, but I like having no real foundation of knowledge to be stepping off of that part was really challenging, just like jumping into the deep end, and like, figuring out how to swim in the ocean
Daniella Allam: ocean metaphor.
Maddie: Yeah, and now that I've, but now that I've, like, kind of, through that early phase, I feel like I, I know a bit more, you know, I think one of the most challenging things about marketing is that it's constantly changing. So that's both, that's both a challenge and a benefit for me, as somebody who's coming into it newly, it's like, well, kind of everybody is coming into it newly a degree, like, everybody is learning how to use AI right now. So right,
Daniella Allam: yeah, exactly.
Maddie: I'm not That behind,
Daniella Allam: not necessarily behind and the concepts are, you know, sort of, I would say, you know, the concepts falls, but the channels change all the time. strategies change all the time. And I think just being like, yeah, nimble like you said and being willing to soak it up and learn every single time is really helpful. Even for folks like me that have been doing marketing for so long. I studied marketing, it still feels like that. Sometimes so so I totally feel that. And so I'm curious also about like the origins about of PACHA. Because I saw that, not just your partner, but you you co founded PACHA with five other people. Yeah. From what I can tell. And that's quite unusual. I guess, right. Or yeah, with Yeah, six of you total?
Maddie: Six total. Yeah, there's four others, I guess, five, if you count Adam.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, five if you count Adam. So why did you decide to structure the business in that way? And like what led to that?
Maddie: Yeah. Well, really. So we partnered with another business called Trilogy Sanctuary. They're an organic, gluten-free vegan rooftop cafe and yoga studio here in San Diego. It's a really cool spot. If you ever go to San Diego, you should visit.
Daniella Allam: Okay, noted, noted.
Maddie: But they basically, they were really interested in one having PACHA products on their menu and two like, furthering their, their investment in a company that's doing good for the world. And so the this, the business structure really came more out of like, okay, Trilogy has the financial capability to fund the startup. We did not. Adam and I did not have that. I mean, I just finished a PhD. So like, right, limited financial means. But so they, they, they were the seed money, and also not just the seed money, like they also had the business savvy. Joe, the, the owner, the founder of Trilogy, the co founder, has a lot of connections, and just know how of like, how things are done. So. And also Brooke Flynn, who is one of the co owners of Trilogy, she was the original. She's the one that Adam got the original recipe from, in a way she had, she had made a very small, like cottage industry business, using the bread and was a recipe that she got from an old partner of hers, who was from South America. And yeah, so they, they had done a very small version of PACHA before we ever before we ever did. So she obviously was an asset that she knew how to make the bread, she knew how to innovate. She's, yeah, there. There were there were skills and resources on on the table with all of the members of the Trilogy team that have been super valuable to to our process as we've as we've grown as we've started and grown.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, that's so interesting because I you know, I work with a lot of folks that are probably like, the majority of whom are solopreneurs. And I think it's just so, so interesting to see a company that we're that has a lot of people really at the foundation stage of, of the company. And I'm sure that it went from what it sounds like that that's been a benefit because you've been able to leverage everyone's strengths. Instead of like putting it all into one one person. I wonder how Adam would feel about that as well. But I think that's really a unique and interesting and inspiring, I think for a lot of folks to think about, what if I do this with other folks and what what they can bring to this instead of me just trying to do it all by my lonesome. And coming up against walls and having to deal with everything alone. So yeah, have you found that it's been yeah, a benefit, a boon to that company to have this this Brett? And probably things split up among among the six of you?
Maddie: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, for sure. For sure. I think one thing that is probably, again, unique about our founding situation is that since we've since the founding group was me and Adam, and then Trilogy, the company the Trilogy team has acted more as like our board of directors, so they're there in less in the day to day like they're really active and busy running Trilogy. Right. So, Adam and I have been kind of the primary workhorses right from the beginning, but, and having the Trilogy team on board from the beginning. And, like, they know everything that's going on, they're helping us raise funds, which is a huge, it's, I mean, for a company, if you're founding a company with the intention of going nationwide and like, yeah, growing your brand in a significant way. Fundraising is like, Adams entire job. It's not his entire job. He does way more than that. But like it could be a full time job for certain periods when you're when you're actively fundraising. So having having support with that alone is invaluable.
Daniella Allam: So yeah, I guess in terms of fundraising, a question that that comes up a lot, too, from I think early stage entrepreneurs is like, when do you know it's the right time to fundraise? And how do you go about it? Like, how do you go about finding the type of capital that you want? And the right investor and partner? What has been that experience for you guys? When When did you know you were like, we need we need some cash? Was it like day one?
Maddie: Um, yeah, so in a sense, from day one, we knew we would be fundraising, like, we never, we did not design the business in a way that we would self fund it. Again, like, unfortunately, in the environment of consumer packaged goods these days, like, it is pretty challenging to, to, to found and scale a business without significant capital injection, which either means you're going to be fundraising or you're independently wealthy. So we were not independently wealthy. Which means we knew we would be fundraising, in terms of like, when it became clear that it was time to start fundraising. We are our growth was a little bit led by our, our hunt for a facility. We knew that we wanted to expand, and it's, it's, it can be challenging to find an appropriate and well-priced facility. And so we ended up finding a bakery. If it was an existing bakery, that had been broken, it used to be like a, no like a, what would it be like 70 or 80,000 square feet, just like a bread bakery. And it's now been demised, it's actually partially a Dunkin Donuts facility. That's where our landlords are. And they're actually invested in our company, which is like a very interesting pairing. But it really works. They're they're very supportive. And they're good, good business people. But, yeah, we found the facility, and it had the ovens that we were already like, looking to put into our, into our facility whenever we found it, and it just had a bunch of the equipment that we already needed. And it was like, Okay, we need to, we need to rent this place like this is, this is what we're gonna grow into. And it has been perfect, I will say that there was like a little gap of time where we didn't, we really didn't need all the square footage that we had. But then we got Whole Foods. Once we landed the Whole Foods account, if we hadn't had that facility locked down, there's no way
Daniella Allam: You wouldn't have been able to do it,
Maddie: We couldn't have done it, you know, we could not.
Daniella Allam: That's such an interesting story, too, because it's like you kind of were, you didn't know, maybe preparing for this future expansion. And sometimes folks are like, Well, when I get there, when I get that distribution, then I'll think about a facility but it's like, well, that might have not, you know, been able to work because by the time that they want to build bringing your product, they want to fill their their warehouses, like you might not be able to supply that with it with your existing operational capacity. So that's kind of interesting. It's serendipitous that that happened that way?
Maddie: Yeah. I mean, in some ways, it's serendipitous. In some ways. It's like we, we were going for it.
Daniella Allam: you were going well, I do remember seeing that right that hey guys, we had tried to you're unsuccessful a few times, right of pitching Whole Foods, and you were trying to get distribution. So what was that experience like of getting into into Whole Foods? What did the rejections teach you? And what advice would you give people that are that that's their dream for their brands?
Maddie: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, so the first thing about our Whole Foods journey is that we founded our company at the beginning of COVID. So we started in April of 2020. Like, you know, the balls were already world rolling when COVID really hit, but we didn't actually start in our our tiny little test kitchen facility until April, April 2020. And you know, even at that time, we were pitching Whole Foods. And so we, we knew we were fairly confident that we would get rejected at least once, at least once. It's pretty uncommon, actually, that Whole Foods just sees a brand and is like, yep. Unless, unless that brand happens to align perfectly with a need that they have.
Daniella Allam: Mm-hmm. So you were expecting to be rejected.
Maddie: We were expecting to be rejected. And it's good. We got rejected at first because like, we started in a 300 square foot test kitchen. And we had like a shared freezer, it was like a commissary kitchen. So a bunch of other businesses have their have their operations next door. And then there's a shared freezer, down the hall. And like, we were like, by the time we moved out of that facility, we were using more than half of the shared freezer space. Like we were like, busting at the seams. We could not have supplied Whole Foods. But yeah, so knowing that we were going to be rejected and, and having that plan kind of in place for like, okay, like, we know that we need to pitch Whole Foods multiple times, we need to, we need to be exposed to them a few times. And it's not like the end of the world when we get rejected on the first round. That's one thing. For us, we so I think there's two things that really shifted our appeal for Whole Foods. One was that we, we started slicing our bread. A slicer is just a really big expensive piece of equipment. So like before, we had a need for it, we were selling the loaves whole unsliced. And after after being denied by Whole Foods. The second time, we were like, Okay, we're going to pitch again. And we're just going to slice the samples, like we're going to send the sample slice. We didn't have the bread slicer at that time. We were like we're gonna send it slice. And that if they say yes, we've got to get the slicer. Figure it out. So I mean, we do which slicer we wanted and stuff, but we didn't have it yet. So we said the samples off and yeah, Whole Foods said yes to the sliced bread. And the other thing, though, that I think was really important for the for the approval and especially for like getting nationwide distribution from the get go is that our packaging is 100% Certified Home Compostable. So that was just something that the buyer in our category at Whole Foods really cares about. Like she was like,
Daniella Allam: I found that really compelling
Maddie: Yeah, she's like, all these brands come to me and tell me that they can't do compostable packaging. But here you are doing compostable packaging, and we're like, yeah,
Daniella Allam: yeah, here we are.
Maddie: And it's working. And we've been doing it for a while. So yeah, I think the piece that was kind of like the nail in the coffin is not really the right term. But you know, yeah.
Daniella Allam: The thing that sealed the deal, clearly, but yeah, that's so interesting. And I love this kind of perspective that y'all had at the beginning of like, we know, we're gonna get rejected, but we want that exposure. And we want to try anyway, right? Because I think a lot of folks are like, this is my one shot, it's my one shot to get in front of Whole Foods. They reject me then like, the whole world is like, you know, crumbling. And I think this is just the story is a testament to like, keep trying refining your product, refining your operations, and then eventually, if it fits with what they want, they're gonna bring you in, and it's not like, it's a rejection forever. Yeah. And I probably also was the right time, right, like you said, maybe wouldn't have even been ready. If if they would have said yes, yeah, early on, when you maybe that would have caused even more problems, then maybe you would have been able to handle so yeah, I want to talk about the compostable packaging, because that is very, I wish it wasn't that innovative and unique. But but it really is, right? Because a lot of folks and even at big companies that I've been at, it's always been like, well, we know we want to do that, but it's so expensive, or it doesn't have you know, the qualities that we're looking for and there's always reasons why not to do it. Another thing I've heard a lot is like, well, most people in the US don't have access to like composting facilities. So recycling is actually more sustainable. So there's been many reasons why different clients and companies that I've been at or talked to have said, we're not ready to go there yet, even though that would be aligned with our sustainability principles. So what drove your decision to make a compostable? And yeah, how hard was it to make it happen?
Maddie: Um, so our decision to make the packaging home compostable has been it's it's been a priority from the start. You know, our mission at PACHA is to nourish the health of people and the planet with regeneratively grown food, that's our mission. And kind of like, in the subtext of that is like, nourishing the health of the planet. And in my mind, anything that generates plastic waste, is not nourishing the planet. There's just like, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it. So we just knew from the beginning, and like, I think one thing that companies run up against is that if you start out with a cheaper, a cheaper, like, plastic packaging option from the beginning, and you start to like, you build your business based off of like, the cogs of this less expensive thing, and then all of a sudden, you're like, kind of at scale. And you're like, Okay, well, we want to go with compostable packaging, but it's x, y. And that's like, then the numbers are just like, oh, we can't do that, like, it's not possible the way our businesses do it. We just did it from the beginning, we were like, this is going to be a cost, we're gonna have to figure out how to build the business and scale it with this margin. You know, this is it. And we actually started out with we started out with a home compostable vacuum seal bag. And that was much more expensive than what our current packaging is. So that was actually really nice. We started out with something that was like, it was a sorry, it was like a vacuum seal bag inside of a full color printed cardboard box. So and the the for the vacuum seal to work, the film actually has to be thicker than than a traditional bread bag, though. It was more expensive, because it's more material. And then then it was put inside of a cardboard box. So like all around, it was just an expensive package. So when we transitioned into the compostable bread bag, that was actually a significant reduction in our in our packaging costs that helped our cogs a lot. So it was really nice to go in that direction. Like start expensive. And then yeah, go cheaper. But yeah, like, like I said, I there's other arguments that companies make about compostable packages. One that I do think is really valid is that the barrier layer of compostable film like fully 100% home compostable film is it's not it's not as good. So if you're selling something like a granola, or a bar that really just needs to be like, fully has a shelf life and intended shelf life of like, I don't know, a couple of years like, they really do see that their product quality goes down when they package in a compostable pouch, and the compostable technology is definitely coming along. So I think there's like it's it's imminent, that that is going to be really possible. But yeah, like I like I said, I think that a lot of companies just they they dig, they dig their own grave when they start with. When they don't build a cost solution into their business model.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Because what this to me shows is that this was, you know, the mission was very clear about what the company was going to do from the outset, their reason for being for the company. And so the natural extension of that is, how does that come to life across our packaging across sourcing across this right? And so if you build that foundation from the outset, then yeah, you you price appropriately, right, you figure out your cogs and other ways to make the business work and to have that alignment across the board. Because, yeah, so often, I think that's something we see consumers struggling with, right? And seeing brands that are saying, Yeah, we care about this, but we can't do that, you know, and, and it's like, that's a natural thing that somebody that cares about sustainability should offer But for XYZ operational reason we're not we're not able to do it. And that I think, as a consumer leaves you a little bit like, well, I don't know if I fully buy that they're committed to the mission. Right. And so I think that really speaks to the commitment that y'all have and that PACHA has to, to that mission of, of doing something that's actually better for the planet and for people and for soil health and all of that. So, so really, kudos to you guys. And I hope that more companies really follow in your footsteps and, and over time, I think as as consumer demand goes up, right price will go down, and it will become more accessible. Right. And and technology, like you said, is getting better at that because Because yeah, the consumer demand is there. I'm sure that you've heard it. Like have you heard from consumers that that they love the fact that your package? Oh, yeah, compostable? Yeah, it's probably a big class
Maddie: It's definitely a big plus. What's what is interesting, what is interesting is that it's it's not the reason people buy our brand right now. Like, really? People buy food products, because they taste good, right? That's the reason. Number one, number one reason. Cool, you put it in a compostable package, but if it doesn't taste good, I'm not gonna buy it.
Daniella Allam: Equally. Yeah, even Yeah, perhaps the most important Yeah, every customer survey I've run on every single category. Yeah, like beverage food, even like things like supplements, like teas, you know, where you're like, well, maybe it doesn't have to taste good. Yeah, taste is obviously the number one driver of any purchase decision. But I do think this is a plus. And I think what this does is over time, I think having this alignment between like values and actions really can foster loyalty to It's like another reason to keep coming back to you. And because they can fully trust you as a brand, not only is the product good, but I also trust that you're doing the right thing with with the planet, which is something I care about. So So yeah, I think kudos to you guys for doing that. I'm very excited to hear that more brands are doing compostable. So I want to talk a little bit about regenerative agriculture because that feels like it's another big core part of the of the brand. And so what what drew you I mean, was the original recipe was it made with buckwheat? And what was that decision process to really focus on regeneratively grown buckwheat and, and really put regenerative agriculture at the forefront of what the company is doing? And maybe for the folks that don't know, like, help define what regenerative agriculture really means.
Maddie: Yeah, totally. Yeah, so I'll start there. So most people are really familiar with organic certification. Fun fact, only 1% of America's farmlands are actually certified organic. Wow. So organic is kind of like the, the baseline of what is being done to reduce or eliminate the use of pesticides, fertilizers. Yeah, or an organic farm can still be a, like, an organic farm can still have a whole field of corn, but they just can't spray. Like they can't spray glyphosate on it, they can't spray petrochemical fertilizers on them, they can use what are considered organic fertilizers and pesticides. So they are there are leaps and bounds and it takes seven years for a field to convert from a conventional farming you like you know, using all the all the things into it a truly organic field. So there, you know, organic is leaps and bounds beyond conventional. However, there's still issues with organic farming, you know, like, like I said, it can still be like a monoculture field and there's when you grow a whole field of one species of plant is very susceptible to disease, it can be hard to manage, you have to you still have to use these pesticides these like natural pesticides and fertilizer inputs to be able to grow food. And the other thing is that there's not really any regulation with organic farming around the care of the soil. And the soil is like it's it is the lifeblood of humanity. It's the lifeblood of of all life on Earth. Really.
Daniella Allam: I love that.It is the lifeblood of humanity. I need that on a t-shirt.
Maddie: Yeah, yeah, you can quote me on that, too on that one.
Daniella Allam; Yeah. Well, that's good.
Maddie: For real like without soil, you can't you can't grow crops in dirt, like without a without a healthy topsoil system. They're just you just reach a point where adding fertilizer and adding chemicals just doesn't work anymore. Plants need they need all the little, the worms and the nematodes and the fungus and the microbes and everything that works together to transfer nutrients from the soil into the plants so that they can grow. It's really necessary. So regenerative agriculture, is that that it has a lot of definitions what what regenerative agriculture is, is like not very well defined. In some ways, like the people who started the organic movement, were actually like, what they were trying to do is what we are now calling regenerative. And then, you know, we made steps in the direction but we didn't quite get and the goal of like, okay, we're implementing farming practices that are retaining topsoil, helping to helping to retain water and use water wisely. We are implementing practices that are considering animal welfare, creating balanced ecosystems and biodiverse ecosystems that are more drought tolerant that are more what's the what's the right word more resistant,
Daniella Allam: resilient
Maddie: Yes, resilient and resistant to disease. So yeah, regenerative. regenerative agriculture focuses on eliminating, eliminating the need for any chemical inputs using the natural system. So like, for example, a regenerative farm or a regenerative orchard might actually want to graze animals among their orchard so that the fertilizer of their manure can be what it fertilizes the trees because that's, that's actually really what the trees need. And maybe those animals are ducks and maybe the ducks take care of the snails that are eating the leaves off of the trees. You know, the systems were like, if you if you can create a balance with between the animals and the plants and all the critters. You don't need to add anything in the form of petrochemical. Yeah, fertilizer or pesticide. Yeah, so buckwheat is a buckwheat is a it's not wheat just to start there, but nothing like wheat. Aside from the fact that it's used to cover an entire field, buckwheat grows these like, these really beautiful white flowers like they're it's a green plant with a ton of tiny white flowers. It attracts a lot of different pollinators not just bees, like also, beetles and ants and different things that like come to the flowers and are also really good for like the soil ecosystem. And it's used as a cover crop in a lot of places. So like, buckwheat is not it's not a super well known ingredient here in the United States. It's really it's used a lot in Russia, like people just eat buckwheat like, like a like a hot cereal, you know, they make Kasha Kasha is buckwheat, soba noodles are buckwheat.
Daniella Allam: Oh yeah that's right? Yeah,
Maddie: Yeah, there's other countries that like buckwheat is like, oh, yeah, we eat buckwheat. The United States doesn't really doesn't really do that. And there's farmers that will grow buckwheat as a cover crop just for the the soil retention properties, the nitrogen-fixing properties, it's like, it's just good to be sure that your soil stays in place between between between crops, and it grows really fast. So it's really good at putting roots in the ground and just making sure that your topsoil ecosystem is not going to blow away. Yeah. like your summer corn.
Daniella Allam: So they put some farmers use buckwheat, but don't plan on that. That's not like what they sell. That's not necessarily a part of, of what their farm offers, but they're using it for the properties that it has for the soil and the environment.
Maddie: Yeah, like some of the original organic, like the organic movement, like I was talking about got started in Minnesota or not Minnesota, Montana. And that was that was a strategy that some of those farmers were using. They were using buckwheat and other cover crops and they weren't. They weren't sold for cash, but they were they were valuable for their their nutrient retention capabilities. Hmm. But yeah, so like, what's really cool about buckwheat is that because it's this like fast-growing cover crop, a lot of farmers can actually, like, add it into their crop rotation. Like they don't need to like use a field for buckwheat instead of growing whatever it was they're dragging the report. They can put the buckwheat in a rotation, a short rotation, grow the buckwheat get another harvest and other cash crop and still, like just increase the value of their farms output.
Daniella Allam; Wow.
Maddie: Yeah. So it's, it's really, really cool.
Daniella Allam: So it's a win win, win, win win? Yes. For everybody involved. And so that was like a core part of the of the recipe from the beginning. But I also see that it's, it's really a part of what you know, and part of the marketing that you talked about with PACHA not just the deliciousness of the product, but also the fact that it has this impact. Have you found that that messaging like resonates with consumers, or has it been challenging to get them to understand that and they're just like, just give me the delicious gluten free bread?
Maddie; Yeah. Yes. Like, like I said earlier, similarly, with the compostable packaging, like, there's there's certainly a niche market of people who are like, I want the healthiest I want the best for the planet. I like this is the thing I care about the most part of that niche. But really, like the majority of people, it's, it's secondary. It's something they possibly don't even ever think about when they're purchasing their products. Yeah, so the, from a marketing perspective, like the consumer research that we've done again, like, we find that people, they're like, oh, yeah, the regenerative piece, it's pretty cool. But I don't really care about it in terms of whether or not I'm gonna buy your bread. And so it hasn't been something that we have leaned on very hard for, like our paid advertisement and stuff, we still talk about it on our Instagram, like we share the information, we send it out in our email newsletters, we like, we want people to know that it's happening. But in terms of like, getting new customers in the door, that's not the information that we want to use to make the first sale.
Daniella Allam: Right. Yeah, no. And that makes sense. Of course. Yeah. Knowing what what consumers are looking for, right, especially in this day and age, right, where there's so much noise. And I, I found that a lot with a lot of companies that are mission driven, or that have a really great sustainability story that, yeah, oftentimes consumers, you know, it's the kind of content that doesn't get the most engagement. It's not the thing that's like a huge purchase driver. But I think the benefit of of leaning into that over time is I think, like we mentioned, loyalty, and that just building trust over time. Right, that like at least I know, like peripherally what I care about is my delicious bread. But I kind of know peripherally that, that when I'm thinking about this gluten free bread versus another one, there's going to be these other things beyond the delicious taste that can make me you know, stay within within the within this brand. So I think there is a benefit, but I think sometimes Yeah, some of us marketers struggle with that, because we're certain companies, it's such a core part of what they do that we they really want the consumer to get kind of like I want, you know, yeah, compostable. Yeah, this, but oftentimes, yeah, consumers are consumers, and they just they just want to get good food.
Maddie: That's actually kind of like one of your questions earlier about, like, what's challenging about being a marketer? Yeah, I think for I think that that's, that is one of the things that's really challenging and like, getting out of my own. Like, my mission for the company is not the thing that is going to have people buy our bread. Oh, I have to like, you know, even though the company is is doing this thing, being able to speak about being able to speak the language of what people what people are actually caring about. That's, that's a challenge as a marketer, and the other thing is like yeah, just kind of like I don't want to say I don't want to say like resignation, but just like coming to the understanding that what we do with PACHA may not like may not convert people to my worldview.
Daniella Allam: Hmm.
Maddie: And and that Like, that makes me sad. Like I've like want people to see what it is that we're really doing. And they may not and structuring the business in a way that like, it doesn't matter, in a sense whether people buy into the regenerative movement through our brand, because we're creating a movement, whether they know it or not.
Daniella Allam: Right. And the impact. Yeah. The supply chain will still exist. Right. Exactly. And the more you grow it, whether or not they know, you know, yeah, whether or not they're bought into the regenerative, they're still having an impact. And I think that over time, and I think, you know, research does show that it does have some level of benefits. Oh, yeah, consumer, right. But it's, but it is, I agree with you, it is sometimes disheartening that it's not a bigger like purchase driver or decision maker, when, when, when a company or a brand is so committed, like this would happen to us a Traditional Medicinals, it's all the time, for example, FairWild, where it's like, nobody knows. And honestly, nobody cares, which is so sad that nobody cares about wild collectors. You know, it's like, why do you not care, but it's just because I just want my tea, like, like, and we and I think coming back to the point of feeling ourselves as marketers as consumers, and realizing that yeah, we're just looking for, you know, best tastes best thing that fits my benefit that I want. And if it is doing something better for the planet, that's a plus. Yeah. And, and, and yeah, it's, it's, it's always been a struggle, especially, I think, you know, I used to struggle with this, that sometimes with herbalists that are like, we have to communicate all these benefits of these plants, and all the sourcing and all of that. And it's like, that's gonna confuse people, they just want to know, what is this tea was going to do for me, you know?
Maddie: Yeah. Totally.
Daniella Allam: And sad and disappointing for people that love plants, for people that love getting nerdy and into the nitty gritty of this stuff. But yeah, that's, that's the reality of the consumer landscape we live in. But I think the benefit is that regardless, the more people buy the product, the more people buy and stay loyal, the bigger of an impact you can have. Right in that. And, and I think we have to resign ourselves to that.
Maddie: Yeah, well, so and then there's like, there's another piece that's kind of interesting, which is that you mentioned that there are people really like they want to know what the product is and what it's going to do for them. And their regenerative agriculture aims to create really healthy soil, so that it can create really healthy food. And so if we really like as marketers, this is another challenge to as marketers, if we can really draw the connection for people between regenerative agriculture and not like, Oh, it's good for the planet, but like regenerative agriculture is good for you. Like, your body wants to eat regeneratively grown food. Did you know that like?
Daniella Allam: Yeah, yeah.
Maddie: Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'll check that out. And I think that, like, that's an opportunity that I'm really excited about in like, as as things unfold with PACHA into the future. Right now, it's a challenge because our, we're still a small brand. So like, our mouthpiece is small, we actually like we're not at the stage where we can spend a bunch of our marketing budget on educational material. Like, and the big brands like there are there are some big brands that are starting to come around to regenerative agriculture like the General Mills's Expo West booth is like all about regenerative agriculture.
Maddie: Yeah, go check it out. But like, you know, if these if these big companies can start educating the consumer about the, the need and the importance of regenerative agriculture like that, the those those companies have a chance to really make a shift and the way people view their food sourcing. So
Daniella Allam: And I love what you said, it's really like it that really is like at the crux of the issue is that regenerative agriculture is Yeah, it's good for us, you know, and it's good for our bodies. And it's also good for us as a planet, like I think, yeah, the more of those connections can be made, right? Because I think a lot of it is just like, like that repetition. Just like with any brand, you know, that you're trying to grow awareness, it's you got to the frequency needs to happen and it needs to happen from all sides. You know, I see it here. I see it there. And then now I'm starting to remember what that is. I'm starting to internalize what that is and what that means for me. So I think it's great to see Yeah, more companies bigger companies investing in sort of growing the brand of regenerative ag Agriculture, so that folks over time can start to make these choices and make these connections, you know, and it's, it's only a matter of time because more and more, right, you also see it in the news, like the issues with our soil, like we only have x amount of crops left, right, like, like the that that messaging is also starting to increase as the problems of the world and the problems in the soil start to become bigger and bigger. So So I think, hopefully, you know, only be a matter of time until, until we're able to make those connections, it'll probably never be a big purchase driver. But I think it's it's always a point of, of connection and a point of, of understanding sort of that web, right, the web and of food and the ecosystem that like we participate in. Yeah, and consumers, I think are trying to become more and more aware also, like, Where does this come from? Where's it source? This is sort of sustainable, is it monocropped? You know, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, that's really inspiring. And, and interesting, because I love always talking about, you know, the challenges of marketing when you're mission-driven, where you're sustainability-driven. Because it can it can be frustrating at times. But um, yeah, that was a little bit into my question as we wrapped up, which is, what are you looking forward to in the in the next year for PACHA? Is there anything exciting coming down the pipeline?
Maddie: Yeah, definitely. So first, we are, like, days away from becoming one of the first brands to get an on on front of pack label, regenerative verification with the soil carbon initiative.
Daniella Allam: Oh!
Maddie: so yeah, they're a certifying body. You can you can check it out. There's gonna be a press release. By the time this podcast airs, we will have that certification. It'll probably be on our pack soon. That's super exciting. We are going to be opening another round of public funding through Wefunder. Again, by the time this podcast airs that that round should be open so you can check it out at wefunder.com/pacha. And the other thing that's really exciting and you know, no promises but we are innovating on some crackers, some sprouted crackers and I have to say, I like them better than the bread and I'm obsessed with the bread. So yeah, we have a lookout for those. They definitely be coming to our online store and hopefully to Whole Foods too. We'll see.
Daniella Allam: Exciting well you know who else loves your brand that I was like, wait a minute looking at your Instagram. You got Gwyneth Paltrow Miss Goop herself.
Maddie: I know!
Daniella Allam: How did that come about?
Maddie; Miracle
Daniella Allam: A miracle! She got her hands on some PACHA
Maddie: Exactly. She like she must have found it at Whole Foods or something. I don't know who gave it to her. I asked but I did not to get a reply from her Instagram. So Wow. She just posted and we were like, oh my god, she did it, she did it.
Daniella Allam: Well, yeah, the queen. Queen of you know, I think a lot of interesting, you know, vegan and gluten-free world out there. Giving you love. Yeah, you know, that you didn't even ask for that's so exciting. So congrats for that. And yeah, I'm wishing you the best of success with everything with your funding round. For everybody to know, Maddie. He's been so generous and grateful. If you want to try pod chat, you can do it with promo code Plantas20 for 20% off your order and it will also be in the show notes. So make sure to try PACHA bread it is absolutely delicious. And I'm going to make an order as well. So thank you so much, Maddie, for having on the podcast and sharing your story, the PACHA story and your valuable insights. It was lovely.
Maddie: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.