Episode 4- Building DEI Into Your Business with Veronique Porter

On today's episode, we speak with Veronique Porter, the founder of Ampersand Workspace, on how to build Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) into your business. She shares best practices for creating an inclusive workplace culture (even if you are a solopreneur), her specific focus on the race and gender lens, and why thinking about DEI early in your company’s journey is good business.

Where you can connect with Veronique online:

Website

Instagram

LinkedIn


Episode key moments:

  • Veronique's entrepreneurial journey

  • How to build an inclusive workplace culture

  • Woke = broke and other messaging

  • Identity and heritage months

  • Walking your talk instead of just checking the mark

  • How to think about DEI in your business

  • Dictating and upholding culture in your organization

  • The importance of having a mission lens


Episode Transcript:

Daniella Allam: Hey, everyone. I am so excited for our guest today. Her name is Veronique Porter. She's one of my good friends, and somebody I admire so much in the DEI space. So let me introduce Vee to you. Veronique or Vee, as her friends call her, is the founder and lead educator at Ampersand Workspace. She believes race and gender factor into all aspects of our lives. So V teaches people how to recognize race and gender-based oppression and use their power, privilege, and influence to disrupt it. facilitated conversations are her favorite way to do this. But she also uses small group trainings, workshops and speaking engagements to shape folks’ mindsets, build those skills and create lasting impact. Veronique brings an international lens from her previous work and international development, her research and American Studies and culture and her current experience as a Black American woman living in the USA and traveling the world. Veronique, we're so happy to have you on the podcast,

Veronique: oh my God, I feel so honored to be here and to be invited here. I also admire you a whole lot and your work. And you know, I just enjoy chatting it up with you. So this is an honor and a privilege and I love it.

Daniella Allam: Well, the honor and privilege honestly is is all ours. I feel like anytime we get into this topic, we have really lively discussion. So I'm really hoping this will be a fun and educational conversation for the folks listening. But before we dive into like the juicy topic of DEI, can you give us a little bit more about your background and why you decided to become an entrepreneur?

Veronique: So Ampersand Workspace is approaching two years old. However, the work that I've been doing, I've been doing it since I've been an adult, basically, the conversations that I have, the things that I read, the ways that I interact with the world, it's always been about race and gender and seeing the world through that lens, and being able to show others ways that we can be better and honestly constantly making myself better. That was originally why I did it. And so I was in a transitionary period, about two years ago, kind of during the middle of a pandemic, for my international development career. And this kind of crystallized as like, you know, went from like, oh, maybe I'll just do something for myself and have this on the side to a full-blown business. So I never intended to be an entrepreneur, but I wouldn't have it any other way. At this point. I love being able to make impact with broader audiences and have these conversations on a larger scale and really help folks unpack all the sensitivities that we have around race and gender, I like to say that my ultimate goal is to really transform the way in which we even approach these conversations, and take away a lot of that sensitivity, a lot of the taboo a lot of the mystery and mystique around these issues and just be able to approach each other with curiosity and mistakes and get to know each other as people not as certain groups and certain identities. Hmm,

Daniella Allam: I love that, you know, recently, Veronique and I go way back and we were hanging out with some friends and a friend of ours when Veronique was not in the room was describing Veronique’s approach to her work. And one of the things she said that is so true is that you really approach these conversations with curiosity. That's something you know, in the 10 plus years that I've known you way more than that 15 plus years that I've known you, um, you know, it's it's such a beautiful skill, right to be able to have these conversations that for a lot of people are uncomfortable, they might be difficult, but you really kind of approach them from this standpoint of curiosity, and it's something that our other friend mentioned about you, and I think it's just so true that you use you know, these conversations and these opportunities as a way to educate people, but from this really kind of gentle and like really compassionate perspective that I find as well. So it's it's obviously for us like a no-brainer that you're doing this work profession. Have a lead, even if it's been a pet topic of yours really for for a long time because you even studied race and gender, right?

Veronique: I studied American studies as kind of like my minor or concentration and undergrad. Because I started with me wanting to know more about Black people, I went to historically white or predominantly white. Historically, like, one of those institutions, and being born raised Chicago, like I was born around and, you know, interacted with all of the Black people, but I wanted to know more of the history and the background. And that just wasn't an option. And so then I dived into American Studies. And I think that really does inform the angle in which I come about, like, when I'd be Black History Month, or Juneteenth, or any of these sorts of discussions. These aren't Black holidays, these are American holidays, these are rotations, these are American conversations. And so it's really about like, you know, merging that taking our rightful place as American citizens, not other not something different. And so having that angle as a Black American woman, then approaching other folks who might not have known these things about Black America folks and other groups, and not knowing our histories, like, for me, it has to be a place of curiosity and learning and compassion and respect. Because some of this has literally been guarded from us, or held away from us in a way that's not quite truthful or quite honest and doesn't honor the history. So knowing that I had that experience, I'm gonna approach everybody else as if that might have been their experience as well. And these give that floor to see where they're coming from, and what they know, and what they have to offer to this conversation. Because we all do have lived experiences, knowledge, and expertise that we can offer to these conversations if we're allowed to do so. And that's how we unpack together and how we learn together.

Daniella Allam: Yeah, well, I think that's really interesting, too, because I'm curious, like how even though, like your background, and your focus is really from that American Studies perspective, you know, we met in West Africa many, many years ago, and you've lived abroad for a long time. How does your experience internationally also impact your work that you do?

Veronique: I mean, I think seeing myself abroad, and I always encourage folks not just to travel abroad, but if you can live abroad, but traveling will do, because it teaches you about other cultures, but more than anything, it teaches you about yourself, if you're willing to listen, you hear so much about yourself, there's so much reflected back, when you're learning about other cultures, when you're interacting with other cultures. So all of my international experience, whether it be through professional international development, where are my actual travels or living abroad, it really does always hold up a mirror to me, and always holds up a mirror to America. And so, you know, oftentimes, when we're in it, we just think that this is the norm that we don't, we don't see our culture, and we don't see what it's really like when you're around other folks, when you're rapping in other countries, when you're interacting with other cultures. Even when you're learning different languages, or hearing different languages, we have a manifest, right, that really does put up that mirror. So not only have I been able to see a mirror myself, but it deepens and widens that understanding that I have about people in the world. But there's all different types of people and interact with all different types of people here in the US, and then also on traveling. And again, that curiosity, being able to understand where they're coming from and what their lives look like. And getting a small piece of that. Not only is it fascinating and thrilling and fun, but it really does help inform how we see each other if I have more of a breadth of information and experience and all of that about you know, how people operate and live. And some of that really just tells us we're all human at the end of the day. And similarities and there are differences. So yeah, I think that really is a part of that international lens is about seeing the mirror, but also that wrath of like, there's so much out in the world and being able to experience as much as possible. Mm hmm.

Daniella Allam: And that, like you said, just opening up a perspective also of yourself, right and of, and of like, you know, also of what it means to be like an American and other places and, and what people's perceptions are of those things. So yeah, I think it's such a fundamental thing. If people have the means obviously, it's like, you know, some people are like, you know, why, why, why go to therapy where you can just travel, you can maybe do both, cuz I would say both like do your therapy while you travel like, get those new perspectives both like through like psychology, but get those new perspectives by seeing how other people live and interact in other cultures. So into your work so what what made you decide to get into di work specifically? What was that thing that like two years So you were like, This is where I want to focus my my energy and my efforts.

Veronique: Well, here's the biggest part is that when I say race and gender, because DEI is a huge umbrella, there's right that right, like, religion and age and you know, military status, like they're the whole umbrella. All under DEI. And I always specified that I tackled the race and gender aspects which can shed light on others. Um, but that's, that's my focus. That's my expertise. That's what I know the most about. And while I have some know how about the others like not? When I say race, and gender, folks automatically make the leap to diversity, equity and inclusion, which is not wrong, right. But what I like to say to people all the time is that racial, gender, race and gender is bigger than DEI and DEI is bigger than race. And gender is like that Venn diagram. The reason why I chose to work in DEI is because while I see that yea, I could be in any place in our society. As a society, we decided that that's a workplace thing, we decided that it's something for groups for teams, is not necessarily an individual thing, it's not necessarily something that, you know, we're talking about on a community level, we're, you know, totally there yet to take those conversations where I want to take them. But we're already gathered in a group in the workplace, we already spend a lot of time there, it's already a built-in place in society. So, honestly, for me working in workplaces lets people show up to a place that they spend a lot of time in. And hopefully, over time, they can show up to those places and be their full selves with no issues. And that be honored and valued and use as a part of the work process, as opposed to something that's merely tolerated or not even tolerated, but didn't say an aspect of that is I get to make wider impact. If I get to work with a team or group, whatever they take from my session, or sessions, it's like planting seeds, and then they nurture that and we start to grow and sprout, and, you know, germinate and it's spreading around even more. So being able to go into those environments, and really plant those seeds and be able to work with folks that it's going to have a reverberating impact, like that's it means even more to me, you know, and it's kind of like working smart, and I work hard, I don't have to talk to everybody. You can, you know, talk to these groups and talk to those groups, and then that gets infused in their work over time.

Daniella Allam: Hmm, that's so interesting. And I really appreciate that distinction between what DEI is and what race and gender and what are the areas that you focus are? Where did this concept of DEI come from? Like, is this like a corporate jargon thing that it just sprung up? Like, I don't know anything about about? Where, Why, why is that the lens that mostly, you know, corporations and workplaces are using,

Veronique: don't quote me on this fully, because I've never done a deep dive in the history of where it came from in the workplace is but my understanding is that it's a compliance thing. And then race is built it out as like compliance, right? Like, you know, you build a, you have a certain number of employees that look a certain way, or you've reached out to certain employees. So see the compliance and illegal way and or this idea of how you represent your organization and what those numbers look like, what I'm, after the death of George Floyd, a lot of folks have pushed to like, really, like pay attention to what we're calling DEI and really, like, look into, okay, what does our organization do? What do we stand for how emerging our values really, with diversity, equity and inclusion, and so before it might have been, it's just been compliance. And, you know, this is how we're gonna like, put things and honestly, a lot of those folks were figureheads, and kind of stationary beings got a lot of impact. And now, folks are like really clamoring to like make deeper impacts and to like really apply dei to really figure out what that looks like for their organization, what that looks like for their employees, what that looks like for their ideal clients. I appreciate that renewed sort of fervor around making this meaningful and making this a real thing and making it way more widespread than it was before. IT organizations that were thinking about this, and now can everybody has it at the top of their brain in some way, shape, or form. Even if they haven't done anything yet. They know what kind of a patient they were appreciate that because it doesn't matter if we call it that or if that's the name, it's the impact that needs to take place like that inclusive workplace culture is what we're looking for.

Daniella Allam: Mm hmm. And I love that that what you said that it's really about making sure that people can bring their full selves to work in these environments without without while feeling safe right without any fears or or threats to their personhood to their mental safety, right things like that. And, and I really love I really love that framing because I think, you know, one of the things I noticed from like the marketing side is that on par with the murder of George Floyd is where we started to see consumers, right? Because I work with a lot of consumer packaged goods companies clamoring for that from the brands and companies that they support. And that's probably one of the main reasons why these companies have said, like, we know, we shouldn't be doing this, because people are asking us to do this. More and more consumers, as we see in the data, right? Like Gen Z consumers and younger consumers, the younger that consumer, the more they want to align with companies and brands that are true to their values that are aligned with what they believe in, right. And so this is one of the things that's really critical to this generation, but so many companies are like, we know we should but but dot dot, dot dot that, you know, why do you think that is?

Veronique: Yeah, I was just gonna say, in part, it's a minefield, like, I'm not making excuses for these folks. But I get the idea of like, they feel and this is an individual thing, it's a company thing, that like, a lot of folks feel so frozen about being canceled or wanting to do it, right. Instead of like, maybe doing it wrong, or maybe making a mistake, they don't do anything at all, they just kind of they're frozen in that discomfort. And in that fear of like, I don't really know this very well. And I'm probably going to do it wrong. Or even if I do do a writing, my intentions are clear, somebody's not gonna like it. And what I say to folks all the time, and and before I even go to what I say to folks, it's even more increased by this idea of like, “woke go broke” that is so starting to, like build a lot of steam as the same the day supportive, be like facts, they'll support it, income doesn't support it. None of none of the studies support that. But the phrase is so rapid that people had already asked that this felt heard it already asked that. I don't know enough to do it. And then how did they even find out? How did they even do it? Right? Is there two things? Number one, you're never going to use it? Here do you like it doesn't matter if you do the Martin Luther King Jr, who is now revered, only had like a 43%, something like approval rate amongst folks when he was alive, like us everybody, right? Like, so many avenues named after him. And they did not like this man, when he was examples of that sort of concept. Like, you could be the best person in the world, but somebody's not gonna like it, it's not gonna work that way. And especially in today's society, where we're never getting the full picture, we're only getting the clip the snippet, what goes viral. So there's that element of, you're not going to please everybody, in order to please so you need to please that your client base, right, those your employees, those are, your employees are the ones that are going to keep going and they should be aligned with your values, missions, whatever that might be. And then your client base, they're the ones you need to be concerned about, everybody else actually has noise. So that's the first thing is discomfort is gonna have, like, you can't learn any new thing, any new skill, any new subject without being wildly uncomfortable, and honestly uncomfortable with like the slightest of it, like, you're probably gonna make tons of mistakes, you're going to be very uncomfortable, you're going to be embarrassed, you're going to have to backtrack, you're going to have to apologize. Like, that's literally what happens when you're learning any new thing. And testing it out and trying a new, there's always growing pains. And so for us to avoid that when it comes to race when it comes to gender. Like that doesn't make any sense. Like you don't avoid that when you're cooking. You don't avoid that when you're learning language. So it's really about stepping out and taking accountability. This is where I am. This is what I'm trying to learn. If you do make a mistake, you apologize, you take accountability, you see people that have hope you do better, you do better, you learn. But that's really all we can expect. It's not about I say this constantly to myself and to others. Perfection is not wired, progress. Whether race and gender, whether we're talking about you know, personal development skills, parenting, being a good human on this earth, we're never gonna get to perfection and we should not hold ourselves to that standard. But are we making progress? Are we making strides? Are we moving forward? Hmm. I was about to do and individuals.

Daniella Allam: And it seems like that is also so linked, like both of those things to me, like trying to please everyone and wanting everything to be perfect, is really again, one of those like engines are one of one of those prime tools, right of white supremacy of capitalism, right? It's one of those. It's one of the best tools because it's so infiltrated into our sense of self worth. It's so infiltrated, I even see it you know, in people trying to build businesses and and I go on and on about like you need to have a targeted consumer audience like your product. is not for everyone. If you're trying to make a product for everyone, you're gonna make something for nobody, nobody's gonna like that. So you need to be able to alienate some people like, and to the degree that even like some people are offended by what you do, as long as it's not like terrible, right, but like, some people are just not going to connect with what you're doing. And that's totally okay. And to make your goal to want to be please, everyone, I think harkens back to this, like internal sense of like, but everybody has to like me. And everybody needs to think that my my product is a good thing, or my brand is a good thing. But it's also quite detrimental to actually building a business. So there's like multiple levels there. And then additionally, right, this like fear of doing things poorly, right, or like, this fear of discomfort, I think, again, is really rooted to this idea that like, the only way that you're worthy is like, if you're perfect, the only way that you do things properly is if you've crossed all your T's dotted all your I's, and you got an A plus and your DEI coursework, or whatever it is, right? But But realizing that it's just so insidious that that these are some of the ways even that like, as an individual, you can start to speak to yourself differently as you approach these issues and these conversations,

Veronique: because it's only going to prevent you from moving forward, right? You can't take action, if you're trying to please everybody, and you can't take action, if we're trying to always stay in your comfort zone, because everything you know, has gotten you to where you are, in order for you to get further than that, you're going to have to learn something different. To grow, you're going to have to explore something different. It can't be what you know, it can't be what feels good, because growth is always going to feel at a minimum a little bit uncomfortable. At a minimum,

Daniella Allam: at a minimum. Yeah. And it's like Pema Chödrön, this Buddhist nun, always talks about this really beautiful image that I find really helpful. And like there's it's three concentric circles, the one in the middle is your comfort zone. And that's where everything is comfortable, right? The one right outside of it is the challenge zone. And that's where growth happens, right, you're a little bit challenged, you might be a little bit uncomfortable. And that's where you can actually grow and learn new things. And then right outside, that is the trauma zone. So that's where it's like learning something or going into some topic, it's just going to be too much that actually, it's also not going to give you growth. So growth really only happens in that in that fine line between the comfort and the trauma zone, that challenge zone, which I think is basically what you're saying is you have to be willing to have a little bit of discomfort, not so much right that you got to go get, you know, help for, but enough that like you are able to push your growth edges. So you're dipping the toe in the pool in a way that feels kind of like not maybe not comfortable, but in a way that feels like it's pushing you but you're also given something getting something.


Veronique: I like that you brought up the trauma circle part because I think that folks feel like, if they do it, they have to some folks they feel like if they do they have to go all in, they do get hurt or they do you know, get harsh critique. So they you know, whatever it is that really like traumatizes them. And they're like, this is why I never did this to begin with. This is why you know, I can't mess with Black folks anyway, because all they do is critique and I'm trying to be your friend, this is not how you get allies. And it's really about, you know, looking into yourself said, Well, okay, maybe I want to go too far, that's very bad. Maybe I need better support. Maybe I just don't work on this thing for now. Because especially with entrepreneurs, we're wearing so many different hats. All the time, you can't embrace again, diversity is an umbrella, you can't embrace all the diversity all at once. Because you're gonna burn out, you're gonna hit that trauma zone. It's really about saying this thing is really important to me, let's start here. This is what I know. Let's build that out and stretch that out a little bit more. And then you can build from there. But it's not like tomorrow where you get to grow up and like, oh, now I'm completely diverse. I'm gonna hit all marker. Right? Everything. No, we already wear a lot of hats, work on this one or two things. It will get you comfortable again, in this example.

Daniella Allam: Mm hmm. And like not being so wed to this like utopia, right? Like, yes. And then the utopia, I would deal with all the diversity issues, right. We've talked about accessibility, we would talk about we were talking about so many different things, but most people are not running businesses in a utopia. Right. And and that vision, obviously should be something you hold in your mind, but it shouldn't be what prevents you from taking the small steps that are available to you, whatever those might be, right. Because let's go back to this like whoa giggles broke down because I think this is a to a fascinating topic, right? And we've definitely seen that discourse getting bigger and bigger over time. But then I also saw recently, I think posted about this that actually woke companies, quote unquote companies are actually performing better financially. Yes, despite that messaging, so why is being woke actually a benefit to companies?

Veronique: I love that you brought up this question, because it's one of my favorite things to talk about at the moment. When I say that, like, you know, woke go broke, or whatever the phrase is, is like, completely unfounded by the data, like any data you see around the ad, will show you things like you get two times more money for like X amount of Z employees, you get more productivity, you get more innovation like you're literally ahead of the curve. But even just financial, right, like every company, we've seen big company that we've seen have these, like big campaigns that get huge pushback. They don't go, in fact, they make more money out like, all publicity is good publicity or something like that, like it's literally applied. Because they were in the news, because they're they're hyped up. What happens is, is the people that are usually you know, a part of the backlash, those are usually not the ideal clients, some of them might be, but more likely than not, those are not the ideal clients. To talk about somebody like Target, like anybody who went shopping at Target, know that they come up with big themes around identity and around heritage, every time they can get a backlash around Black History Month. I don't know why all of a sudden, you know, when pride came around, folks were upset because they literally did that every single year.

Daniella Allam: But they've been doing that for a long time.

Veronique: Every year, right? In fact, it just like keep expanding more and more. So this idea of like your ideal clients being the ones in the backlash, that's not the case with other folks who are taking up his mantle who don't know and who aren't the client base. And so if you stick to your values, and that was Target’s issue, where they had double backlash, but if you say, these are my values, this is what I stand for your ideal clients, and the folks who have been riding with you the whole time, they're going to continue to do so. And then other folks is going to be like, Oh, why would that stop that already gave me the case that which wasn't a big business at the time, this organization or this company called Honey Pot. And they produce like hygiene products for folks with vulvas, basically. And so they have some sort of campaign that featured Black women because it is owned and ran by a Black woman, and some white woman, blogger or influencer, whoever got really upset that they did not see themselves, even though all the other feminine products they saw themselves in but this one, they did it and they were mad about it. And it causes huge uproar against Target against any pot. And guess what happened? Honey Pot was sold out for weeks. More stores, yep, honey pot double down. Because I don't think in the beginning, they were using language that was inclusive around people with logos. For example, they were saying feminine hygiene products yz. And somebody must have taught them or told them when they picked up on it because they changed that language as well. They doubled down even more only benefited them and has not heard them exactly about like finding your niche and finding your people. That's really what it comes down to. Because like I said, you can't please everybody, you're not going to if you make a product that is supposed to be for everybody, that's not going to work but more. So this idea about if you go woke if you align with your values, and if your values are about diverse folks that their values about being inclusive, if you do that, you can't lose every single case, and these are just to the target one in the honeypot world. But literally, there's some there's an article that I posted on LinkedIn that had like, a bunch of big companies since, like 2016/2017. And these big backlash campaigns. And every time they make more money, every time.

Daniella Allam: Yeah. And that's really because they understand who they're going after, right? Like when I worked many, many years ago, plus 10 years ago, when I worked at Campbell's right, one of the largest food companies in the country, Fortune 500 company, and really one of the largest in the world. They knew that even back then, and we're talking this is 2014. In 2014. They invested heavily in Pride. They invested heavily in a variety of different heritage months because they knew that the people that they were going after that they were targeting and they had all the data to show it cared about this stuff. And I think it's when you start to get into this like this fear of trying to offend people that you actually you leave so much money on the table. So if we're talking financially, you're leaving a lot on the table and like another great example. Like, have of just having a strong point of view and winning at a strong point of view is Liquid Death, right? Everybody talks about Liquid Death and the sparkling water brand. Because they actually what I find so fascinating is they'll actually take people that troll them. And they'll make like posts about it right? They'll even make a joke out of the people that are not their people. And so by doing so, they're bringing more of their people into that. And so I think, again, like, this is one of those things where like, you have to define as a company, like, who are your people, if you are serving the people that don't care about these issues, then maybe don't make an issue about these issues. But the vast majority, and what we see in the consumer data is that more and more brands want to target Gen Z's right, Gen Z's millennials, we used to be the hot consumer target. Now everybody's like focusing on Gen Z's and under, right, because that's the future of consumption in America and capitalism. And so if you, if you think about those, those folks that you want to target, what do they care about? Like, these are the people that really care about respecting people's pronouns. These are the people that really care about making sure there's diverse rooms, making sure there's diverse representation, that the language that people are using is inclusive. So even if like your brand is being run by somebody who's not like, you need to think about who do you Who are you serving? And what do they care about, because the other thing we see is that more and more, these younger generations of consumers will really like, it's not enough for you to say I care about X, Y and Z. You need to really put your money where your mouth is, and they and they know that right. They like and that's why the whole thing like Target backtracking, I think is was kind of like a terrible idea from them, right? Because had they just gone in with that perspective, they probably would have gotten a lot more support. Because the backtracking makes you feel like well, were you really doing this for the right reasons, actually. Right. That's the question that people ask. And so

Veronique: the double backlash, right, because they had the initial backlash, or folks who were conservative, and not wanting to like, have this stuff out there. And then when they backtrack, it's like oh, no. People's LGBT+ community what

Daniella Allam: I guess you got one hater, and now you're gonna bring it all down,

Veronique: I guess this is about you commercializing the flag, as opposed to really being about saving lives and impacting folks and making them feel welcome? So yeah, it was really about like, what are your values, Target? Where do you stand? Where do you stand?

Daniella Allam: Where do you stand? And is it really? And is it really are you really kind of walking your talk, instead of just like doing it, and then checking the mark. And we've seen that, like, I've worked on so many brands, and you just see that, that the trend is towards consumers, especially in America, wanting more and more brands and products and companies that walk their talk, they they do what they believe, even if that means pissing people off, even if that means, you know, Ben and Jerry's is going into a legal fight because of their stance of on Palestine. Right, like, even if it means you're gonna do hard things that are gonna really probably have some business risk associated with them, then that's the thing you should do. And then I think the other thing about this like that, that I think is nonsensical about the like, Go woke go broke discourse, is that the other thing I see as a marketer is that people really want to connect with brands that feel authentic, right, that feel like you actually care. And that kind of relates to what we were saying. And it's like, that's one of the key ways that I have found when we talk about the marketing funnel, to get people to really stay loyal to you is if they can see it day in and day out. There's a commitment, there's a consistency. It's not just like you did a one little post when George Floyd died, and that was it right like that. No longer cuts it for people. People are getting way smarter about the things they support about where they put their dollars, and the types of brands and products they want to be associated with. So overall, it's just better business to be

Veronique: smart. When you're, you know, when we're building businesses, whether they be product based or service based to this day and age. There's at least 10 of the people who do In the same thing, like we've gotten away from this idea of something new and innovative, every now and again, we come across something that is like, so new. But more often than not, we are doing something that somebody else is also doing that is probably cheaper on Amazon XYZ. So how do you set yourself apart? How do you are so different than your competitors than your colleagues? And it's really about that authenticity is people connecting to you and saying, Yes, this brand is a brand that I want to buy from this person is a service that I want to like, contribute to, I want to buy their services, because that authenticity because of how they're showing up because of how they were present, their brand and their service and their product, that's literally the difference maker. And if you don't have, you're just kind of lost in the sauce,

Daniella Allam: right? You're competing on other things, right? You're competing on price, you're competing on packaging, you're competing on a lot of other things that are easily replicable as well. So I think the other benefit for a lot of brands is like if you if you pick pick a lane, pick a point of view, pick something, right? It allows you to differentiate yourself as well, right from like your competition. And if it becomes something that you truly consistently over time, invest in supporting, then people will see that and it will start to become associated with the brand. And then another one can't just come and copy you and be like, Oh, we care about the same thing. 

Veronique: Nobody does it like you do it?

Daniella Allam: Does it like you do? Nobody has that perspective? And I think you know, this is a great moment for this question. Because I think a lot of the people listening and a lot of the folks I work with are small scale entrepreneurs, right? So they're not these big companies. They might be like a team of one to 10, maybe maximum. So what do you have any tips for those folks, in terms of, of these topics of DEI of race and gender like what what is a good way for these entrepreneurs to start thinking about this in their businesses.,

Veronique: And I love talking about this in part because I am a solopreneur it's just me, myself and I over here running Ampersand. So I understand what it's like to be in the beginning stages, the first three to five years are to say and to be doing it bootstrapping, there are two different definitions of bootstrapping. But for me that bootstrapping is I didn't have funding, I didn't have a big thing of savings. Like, I'm literally just doing this on my own and making this work. And then on top of that, when we talk about DEI, a lot of folks, again, we're talking about big companies, big organizations, and of course, they should have DEI, but what about these smaller companies? What about, you know, these entrepreneurs who are launching, and the very first thing that I say is that is important for you to start now, figuring out whether you are you haven't launched yet, or you are, you know, a year or two old like me, or you're five years in either way, it is important for you to start right now figuring out what your values are. And your mission is in relation to diversity, how you're making people feel on the end, like internally within your organization, if you have a team of any sort, or even contractors that you hire, and your client base, what does that look like? Who are the people that are coming to you. And oftentimes entrepreneurs say like, you know, I'm getting this amount of folks, well, that means that your marketing and what you're putting out there is what's or the spaces that you're in even, those are the folks it's attracting. And if you want to expand outside of that, again, you got to do a little bit of tweaking to those things to make sure that you are broadening your horizons, both as a person as an entrepreneur, but also as a leader in your organization, in your field, in your domain. So it's important to do that day one from get started. Now. First of all, we're wearing a lot of hats, you know, we're wearing the legal hats, we're wearing the finance hats. We're wearing, you know, marketing hat sometimes, right. And what I've said to folks, even if you are contracting out, even if you have a person in terms of doing it, you still have to know just enough to know what you need from that person, or how to oversee what they're doing, or to be able to make sure that it's in line with what you need. And so we're wearing a lot of hats, and I get that and it can be really overwhelming to manage at all. But at the end of the day, this is a hat that is important in the same way that legal is important. Aligning your values and your mission and figuring out how diversity plays into that is just as important. And you have to wear that hat as well. And it doesn't have to be all the time. But if you do it right, it kind of starts to work itself into every aspect of your business. And in the same way that like you know, you do your finances every so often. Maybe not an everyday thing, but like you're going to balance the books every week or every month or every quarter, you should be also checking in to make sure that you are meeting the goals that you want to meet around diversity and inclusion both internal if you have a team and externally to who your client base is. And then the last thing about that is to not be afraid to like start small and then to be prepared. So you know I was talking to Nashville the other day that was a We're owned by a woman-led business. And they were like, Yeah, but a lot of our folks are white. How do we expand beyond that? And I was like, where folks of color, like, you know, we talked, you know, they literally already said, you know, all these talking points around, you know, other organizations and companies and entrepreneurs, not getting as many opportunities, not getting the support that they need all of that. And I'm like, multiply that when you add peer to peer, it sounds like already, this is already your lane. This is already your people. Expand out to people of color within that same group. And say that say, you know, this is what I've been attracting. And I'm looking to expand, because I think that it's unfair, the way XYZ thing happens, because I know that my service has been a bit, you know, queer people of color, just as it does white women, like, say it, and that authenticity comes through. You don't have to pander to them. You don't have to, you know, give them handouts, to be honest about the fact that like, I want to work with more than what I know. I'm ready to show up.

Daniella Allam: I love that. I think that kind of that honesty, right speaks to this intentionality by being intentional, like if you want to, if you want to reach a certain group, you can't just like put that thought in the ether. And just let like manifestation take care of it. Like you have to be intentional about making it happen, if that's a goal that you have, and you have to have set a strategy for it, just like you would satisfy a strategy to grow your sales, distribution, just like how you would set a strategy to figure out like your contracts, whatever else in your business, like, I really try to encourage clients Yeah, to think about di and this lens, similar to how you were talking about it, like it's just one more of the many functions you have to think about. And knowing that, like you have to be spread out across these, you're not going to do everything 100% to perfection. But it needs to be something that you build into your organization early and into your thinking early, so that you're actually able to affect change, and it doesn't become something that you're only thinking about five years down the line, when an investor is asking you about it when your consumers are asking you about it, and then you're like, oh, shit, now I gotta now I gotta come up with this thing. And I it's always something I wanted to do. But I never had time to do it. Because that's, that's a constant thing I hear is like, I don't have time for this. Um, and I think this idea of infusing into every aspect of your business, I'd like to talk about that as well, because I think so many people think that it's like, just like an HR function. And it's like, well, our HR person will do that, or my HR consultant, or once I hire people will think about that. And this falls squarely under human resources. And like, if they figure it out, I'm I'm out like, I don't need to think about it in any other way. So what would you say to folks that think DEI isn't a part?

Veronique: You know, I never have like one point. So I'm so I got two points. And one point is, is as an entrepreneur you are I tell managers and companies all the time that they dictate and uphold culture, period. So as you dictate, and uphold culture in your patient, no matter how big or small your organization is, even if you're a solo entrepreneur, you dictate what the culture is, and you uphold that. So if it was me, Veronique at Ampersand Workspace, so workspace workbook, are kind of pointing to what did it look like? What is how do I build that in? Immediately? What what are the service providers that I'm working with, right? If I am hiring out for a lawyer or for contracts, if I am looking for someone to balance the books, if I am looking for even programs automate things, like my calendar, or my project management, who are the creators of those programs? Hmm, let's find every single level and then when you're creating, like we were talking about before these benchmarks, or these strategies, DEI absolutely has to be apart, right? How many folks? How do we integrate the entire sales, right? That's the plan to work with? How do we integrate it into our marketing to make sure, for example, my presentation and the pictures show diverse folks, or to make sure that any ads that I do search show diverse votes, right. Those are the sorts of things that like from day one who you're working with, what kind of services and the service providers you're working with. All of that can be diversified. It's really about giving that second thought like, Oh, let me let me double check. So like, is it they don't they're not paying me for this but there are Black holes and Black run service, right? That's what I use because not only are they great and I love it and it's super functional. For me. Added bonus is diverse.

Daniella Allam: Calendly? Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's one of the reasons why I picked Calendly as well.

Veronique: So you're putting money into a Black business, you're supporting Black business. And now, I'm automating my calendar invites, and my books and all of that. It's simple ways that you can do it, it doesn't take a lot of hard uphill battles, you know, search will tell you Black-owned, this Black-owned, book managing services, right, you ain't gotta use QuickBooks, QuickBooks is classically hard to use and not user friendly and expensive. That's my options out there. I know for a fact there that are Black-owned, and not even just Black. Because we say diversity, we always say Black, I'm Black. So I'm trying to look for Black stuff. But maybe you're not bragging, I try to look for Black stuff. It could be an Asian-run company, it could be a Mexican-run company. Like there's a whole diverse set of ways in which you could say, these are the folks that I'm working with. These are the services that are used. This is the kind of contractors that I'm hiring. This is the kind of marketing that I do anything you can think of as a hat that you're wearing in your business, or an aspect that you're putting out in your business, or again metrics that you have internally. How do we make sure that they're going that extra part, and again, they don't have to be all the markers adversity, if you wanted to, again, my eyes race and gender. Even as a DEI professional, even as a practitioner, I don't address all the things I address, race and gender. And again, that's a list of the things and I'm not closed off to talking about other things where my expertise, lies and racism.

Daniella Allam: And that's where you focus those like daily choices, because I think that that's when it's coming out for me is that it's almost like a lens that you need to just wear on your in your day-to-day life, right? Like, as you filter through these decisions about like, what software to buy, even if you are just like a team of one, right? What, what, where to target like your little ad, what kind of picture to show things, things that seemingly seem small, but that actually can have impact over time, because then it trains you over time to always put on this lens right before you move forward. And anything is just like, wait a minute, could I have done this better? Oh, wait, yeah, maybe there is another provider or another way of doing this, that would have been more in line with my values and my mission. And I think to go back to that part, because I think that's so so so important, what you said, which is that really, you know, if you're an entrepreneur right now, starting any sort of business, you know, whether it's a it's a product or a service, and you haven't done the work of figuring out what your mission and your values are. Do that now, like do that yesterday, right? Like that is so so so, so critical. What are you here to do? Why does your business need to exist? Why does the world need your business? And that's a lot of the things I work on with clients as well, is figuring out like, what is that mission? And what are you doing now? What does that vision? What does the world look like when you've completed your mission? And what are the values that are going to inform you in the way that you do business? And that's where a lot of times you can really feed in and think about, well, where does diversity play into this? And, and what are the angles of diversity that really matter for me. And so, so many brands, it's so shocking to me, having done this, like preliminary work, right, and they just have, like, I just have a great surface, or I just have a great product and, and I'm just like selling it. And it's like, well, but if you don't have this North Star, and you don't know where you're trying to head with this, you're just gonna go after a bunch of different things. And in that process, your business will probably also suffer.

Veronique: have a northstar because again, you can easily get lost if you don't have that. Right.

Daniella Allam: Yeah. And you'll be swept up by other sexier different like opportunities, right? It's it's a classic way right? That that people's careers, businesses, ventures go south, right, is that you don't have that thing grounding you and again, with the mission lens, just like the DEI lens, that should be something that is a lens that you put on into your day to day decisions. Also, every single day. Is this in service to my mission or not? Is this speaking engagement? You know, does it have a lot of potential reach, but it's not aligned with my values? Oh, well, should I you know, you know, if you know, you know, yeah, so which is something you know, you Veronique and I talk a lot about and we recently had that experience of having to withdraw from an event that just didn't feel like it was really aligned with our values, even though some of the other pieces of it looked really sexy and interesting. And I think these are these these everyday things really can help have an impact on how you run your business, how confident you feel, and the people that you're bringing in to serve, whether as your clients or as your as your customer base. So wanted to just before we go talk a little bit about one of the pieces of your work that I find really fun and fascinating, even though I haven't been able to attend one of your sessions yet, which are your amazing sessions for the DEI holidays and the heritage months. So can you tell us about a little bit about what those are? And why should companies think about investing in those types of events?

Veronique: Oh, yeah, I'm really loving this space at the moment. Because again, every time a holiday comes up, it's rioe with, you know, this company did this. And that's clearly a faux pas, or this company did that, or this company didn't do anything at all. And they should know better at this point. And again, it's always a catch-22 Not to make an excuses. But it's always a catch-22 with companies about should I do something? And if I do it, how do I do with it? How do I do it correctly? And so really working in a race and gender space and working with organizations, I'm like, let me help you with that. Right. So I do the ones that I call heritage or identity-based holidays, again, because I focus on race and gender. So if you pull up one of these calendars, you can either get all the things, so it's like mental health month, all this stuff like Jewish Awareness Month like, and those things are important. Or you can also get stuff like, I don't know, Hallmark holidays or whatever, right? Or you just not enough. So this idea of which holidays should we be celebrating? Should we be celebrating them at all? Is that something that we do internally with our employees? Or that's something that maybe it's a partnership with an organization? Or a community outreach thing? Or whatever? Right? How, how does that work for each individual company? So what I've started doing is strategy session with companies say, you know, if you have DEI mission plans, initiatives, benchmarks, what does that look like? So I can see how these heritage holidays fit in, along with figuring out what their culture is, and that sort of thing, and then saying, what does it look like for you to celebrate things, and sometimes it looks like done for me sessions. So I do what I call a done for me session, which is, I do want for Black History Month this year, where it was really talking about Black usage virtually. And folks could post that in organizations, I did the same thing for Pride and Juneteenth as to where folks could post in their organization, these internal meetings for their staff, to talk about the ins and outs of specific topics around your team, or around Black History Month or around Pride. Most of them are thematic in case or as far as Pride goes, I focused on trans folks, because clearly, they are the topic of discussion. And we're good. So I wanted to get the other side of that and really show you know what trans is and isn't. And it's really about this expression of identity and freedom, and not what we're hearing in the mainstream. So, really helping these companies to say, let's learn together, let's unlearn some of the things that like we have heard that is rooted in bias or rooted in false narratives. And really, there is no other place that you can find beyond like, your one-off museum or your one-off library to have these sorts of discussions, and certainly not folks that will come into your organization. And you know, you can pick your time and your date and host this for your organization. So I wanted to do that for folks and say, if you are really serious about doing something meaningful and impactful that is both celebratory but also gives you the educational aspects that might get asked you for the ones around race, some race and gender. So I do Black History Month, I do Women's History Month, International Women's Day, I do Juneteenth and I do Pride, because gender are the pride falls under my umbrella. And then any other holidays or any other heritage months and identity based holidays like a NHPI for example, like I could do that session, but I also know talented, the professionals that are in that space that may hold that identity that could do that a lot better. So then I recommend to those organizations, those sort of practitioners, but it's really about figuring out for organizations how to make meaningful impacts that are as that line of celebratory, but also educating you about what this is really about and why we're coming at it from this angle. Watermelon on Juneteenth.

Daniella Allam: Well, and I really love that read because I think one of the things that I wrote down as you were talking is this idea that came to me that is like, you know, a lot of times so many companies focus on like what can they do externally because of the external pressures that they get from consumers. But if there's no internal thing to go with that, that's where you know, you can get into even bigger problems, right? And so really having this like if you're going to have an external strategy than your internal I want you to at least match. But if you don't have an external start internally start with the people that are working on your business day in and day out. So that they can see that like, this is something that you really care about. And you're really invested in, you know, as as like a first step, because I think that's really impactful, right? Like, so many times, I've also seen it in the CPG space, where brands are like, We're amazing. And we do this, and we're XY and Z and like, and like 60% of our of our employees are like, Latino or Hispanic or something like that. And they'll say that publicly. Meanwhile, the majority of the Latino Hispanic people are in the factory, and they're, you know, having issues with their working conditions and their pay. And they're getting, you know, told not to unionize, right? And it's like, well, you're kind of externally talking about us. But internally, do you actually care about our perspective? And do you actually care about us as employees? Are we just like cogs in the machine. So I think, you know, the sessions, to me feel like a really easy way that companies can start to build some of that programming, if they haven't done it already. And start to really, you know, put their money, put their money where their mouth is, and show their employees that there's something there for them.

Veronique: And I love that you said easy, because I do try to make it as easy as possible. So folks realize, yes, there's a mental gymnastics around doing it correctly, and the discomfort and all of that. But you know, there are three topics or three tips that I always tell folks, and one is time and money, like money and time into what you value. So don't last minute this to ask your employees and not demand any employees of color or any, you know, allies or co-conspirators or champions, ask them and not demand that they put on these things or doing events, use their assistance. And then the last part being if you don't have folks, get somebody that you know, and trust. So the planning meetings for those, you know, are really good, are we aligned, you know, other things that I'm gonna say in your organization aligned with what you already have going on. I don't want to come in and be the controversy. I don't want to come in and like, disrupt everything I want to come in and teach and learn and grow together. So let's figure out if that works for us, right? Make it as easy as possible to make meaning and impact because it doesn't have to be super difficult. But you do have to put that time and value into it. And sometimes you might have to outsource to somebody who's not internal to help send that message. 

Daniella Allam: Hmm. Well, that feels like a really great moment to really start to wrap up our Convo because I think what I'm realizing are one of the things I took away from this very educational conversation is that it's all about that intention and putting in some whatever resource you have available, whether it's your time on a day to day basis, whether it's you have some money that you want to put against this. But taking those small steps, di doesn't have to be this big, scary monster that you're like, Oh my God, I don't know what to do. And I'm frozen. It can be something that you can take this small step approach to this, like dip the toe and then dip the foot and then go up to your knee. And then you can soar. And then so suddenly, you're waiting in the pool, right? You might not be swimming laps, but you might be waiting and and having this intentionality really is is what really matters. And what really is going to translate with your clients and your consumer base at the end of the day is what I think we're saying in a nutshell.

Veronique: So honestly, the way you summarize that spot on. Nothing to add. Yeah, no.

Daniella Allam: Just adding some some, some extra salt and judge. Well, this was so amazing, Veronique, tell folks where they can find you. Where can they connect with you? We'll definitely have the link to your website and all your links in the show notes. But tell us where folks can find you and connect with you.

Veronique: The easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn. I am posting stuff in the streets for conversation articles. You know the ways in which I approach this conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion so you can find me under my name, Veronique L. Porter. Of course, you can find me on my website, Ampersand hyphen, workspace dot com. And I'm also on the gram at ampersand workspace, no hyphen. And that one is purely educational. If you go to my website, you can definitely sign up for a newsletter that really talks about the ways that I'm seeing race and gender in the world and the ways in which you can put it into action. And yeah, I mean,

Daniella Allam: I love that I love Ditto on Veronique’s newsletter, it's always filled with fun and exciting content. So make sure to sign up to her newsletter. And yeah, hope to have you back again soon because I'm sure we could have talked about this for more hours.

Veronique: I'm such a nerd about this so that anyone else finds it interesting, like, I definitely love being able to have this conversation, and of course, I always love chatting it up with you. So thank you for the space, and just thank you for being an awesome human being.

Daniella Allam: Oh, thank you for the same. Alright, folks, bye.

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Episode 3- Optimizing Finance to Drive Growth at Scale with Mika Kasumov