Episode 5-Navigating Regulations in CPG with Dr. Zoë Gardner
Daniella sits down with Dr. Zoë Gardner as she talks us through her own journey as a plant nerd in the world of regulation and offers compassionate insight to those just starting out.
Websites: HerbNerd Research | Emblossom
Episode Key Moments:
In the mug- cherry rose shrub.
Advice for people starting their journey.
Important things to know about starting a business in regulated industries.
How to talk about claims in medicine.
What can happen if your product is not compliant.
What is substantiation, and why does it matter?
Resources for copywriting compliance.
Plantas Pod Credits
Host: Daniella Allam
Producer: Jacqueline Smith
If you have any feedback or questions about the podcast, email info@plantasstrategy.com
Episode Transcription:
Daniella Allam: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the podcast. I am so excited for our guest today, Zoë Gardner, who I met when I was working at Traditional Medicinals, many, many, many moons ago. So it's so fun to have you on the podcast.
Zoë: Thank you, Daniela. I'm so glad to be here. And I was just reminiscing about I got to we got to work with so many great people at Traditional Medicinals. And I'm feeling like the Alumni Association is even more fun to work together on our own terms. So delighted.
Daniella Allam: So, true. Yeah, the alums like we almost need like a clap. The Traditional Medicinal alum club, because it really that place brought a lot of amazing people together, that's for sure. So let me intro Zoë because Dr. Zoë Gardner, excuse me a PhD behind that name, and why you need to know who she is because she's she's a big deal, okay, and she's a self-proclaimed herb nerd with over 20 years of experience working with medicinal plants. She's a specialist in the quality and safety of medicinal plants and edited the second edition of The American Herbal Products Association botanical safety handbook, which is a reference text on the safety of over 500 medicinal plants. She earned her PhD in Plant Science from the University of Massachusetts and helped found the medicinal plant program there. Later, she went on to oversee product development and product safety at Traditional Medicinals, leading r&d and working very closely with marketing such as me, quality control, sourcing and legal departments. She now splits her time between working as a research consultant to herbal companies with Herb Nerd Research, teaching with Emblossom, which is an amazing conference herbal products conference, and creating beautiful botanical pottery that I've just remembered. I've always wanted to make an order so after this, I'm definitely making an order. So thank you Zoë for being here. Welcome. We're so excited to have you.
Zoë: Thank you, Daniella. Thanks for that great introduction.
Daniella Allam: Thank you for that beautiful and amazing experience. So I've always even from from the first time that I that I met you at a Traditional Medicinals I really felt like you were that herb nerd right to come with all these all these questions and you're always so well versed and really have a great way of making herbs and medicinal stuff and research really accessible to people especially somebody like me who that was really my my introduction to plants and herbs. So I want to know what what is in your cup right now because I'm sure it's a it's a delicious herbal concoction.
Zoë: Yes. So in the mug today as we talk because it's hot in summary out I've been really enjoying shrubs. So shrubs are usually a combination of fruits and herbs infused in vinegar with some sweetener in there. So today is a cherry rose shrub. And just the delightful I think it's champagne vinegar with cherries and rose petals, so I did not make it.
Daniella Allam: That is delicious!
Zoë: it's from a lovely herbalist. Yeah.
Daniella Allam: Wow, that sounds amazing. Well, I literally just saw on Tik Tok the other day how to make your own rosewater and I have a very fragrant rose in my garden and so I'm gonna start to do that. And is that what is used in it in that cherish rose shrub or is it essential oil or something?
Zoë: Yeah, I think this is probably just the fresh rose petals in with the cherries
Daniella Allam: so infused in their use in the vinegar got it.
Zoë: But making your own Rosewater is a delightful thing to do. And it's great to figure out how you can do it in the home kitchen, which is totally doable
Daniella Allam: So fun. Yeah, I mean plants are just beautiful in my mug, just good old Traditional Medicinals cam-lav. Chamomile lavender is such a such a good one and it's such a supportive plant friend. But I'm really excited in this episode to learn from Zoë because every time Zoë teaches or talks about this stuff, I feel like I learned something new. And particularly for the folks listening that are thinking of starting their herbal products or supplements, brands, or already have them going. And I think there's going to be a lot of value that we could take from this conversation. But before that I wanted to talk about entrepreneurship. Because most of the folks listening are entrepreneurs, everyone on that podcast is an entrepreneur. And I wanted to hear from you Zoë, what made you decide to do this right, you worked, you worked like a regular full time job, and then you decided to go this different path? What What was the driver behind that?
Zoë: Yeah, I think the initial driver kind of at that particular moment of leaving, leaving the corporate job was wanting a little more freedom, wanting a break from, you know, I had done grad school and book writing, and then a bunch of years of technical work. And, you know, I think now now that we've had the, the pandemic times, taking a break is more of a thing that a lot of people are doing as they're able to but it just felt the right time to have a sabbatical as it were, and try things on my own. So the Independence I think that herbalists tend to be feral people to not want to be pinned down too much to a 40 hour week job. So it was feeling that and also at the time, I wanted to explore what it would be like to have a part time job as a craftsperson. So got to do that a little bit and then balance the craftsperson income with the consulting income and, and, and try both different types of work and use both sides of the brain and all of that just to recharge a little.
Daniella Allam: I love that. And I think that's so inspirational, right? Because I think a lot of people sometimes think that the path to entrepreneurship or the path to kind of being independent. It's like you, you gotta find one thing and stick to it, and, and hustle and grind to that thing, right? If you're doing consulting, you gotta just, you know, 24/7, and you're doing the consulting. But I think what happens is that that kind of goes against why a lot of us choose this path, which is that that freedom, and that ability to craft a more balanced life and a life that is more of your choosing. So I think it's so beautiful, that that you kind of do those, those two things. And that's been really inspirational for me as well. I don't do my creative stuff professionally. But I like to carve that time into my week and into my, my, my days, because without it, it feels like yeah, like half of my brain and my soul is missing sometimes.
Zoë: Absolutely. And especially for those of us doing remote work. It's like we're in front of a screen all the time. And if we don't have the balance, and then come back to something to feel more human and creative or you know, just joyful, then we're living half a life,
Daniella Allam: so totally, totally. And, by the way, Zoë's pottery is so beautiful. Oh, it looks like you're taking a short break. When When can we make some orders?
Zoë: Yeah, we'll see we need to get back into into the shipping piece right now I'm just kind of rekindling the the joy that got lost as far as pandemic life and potting alone and shipping things off. And we got to go to an herb conference last month, the International Herb Symposium and sell pottery in person. And it was just the most delightful thing to be reconnected with the herbal community in that way.
Daniella Allam: So alive in the flesh. And I mean, I think it's so it's so true, right? And particularly also in an entrepreneurial journey, whether you're doing consulting, or you're doing something creative, that oftentimes it's so lonely sometimes, right, and it's like you, yourself and you. And I've also noticed this desire really bubbling up this year for just more in person connection, more, more, just like things that you can touch, feel and see. And that kind of remind you that we just don't live right here on these on these screens all the time. And that's not the only fact as much as I also love work from home. Don't get me wrong. But I think it's so kind of critical to have both of that. Both of those pieces right in our in our daily in our daily lives. So you've been at it now for a few years. Right? So when did you when did you leave Traditional Medicinals? When did you start Herb Nerd Consulting?
Zoë: I left Traditional Medicinals So in… When was that? 2017? I think it's been about five years on my own now.
Daniella Allam: Wow.
Zoë: Yeah,
Daniella Allam: five years. So that's that's a big mark. Yeah, gotta celebrate. gotta celebrate those those wins. What? So, you know, as you know, the entrepreneurship journey is full of highs and lows, but I'm sure you've had your share in those five years. Yeah, um, what if you have like, one nugget, one little piece of advice you would give to somebody starting off their journey? Or who's thinking like, I want to quit my full time job and pursue X thing? Or start my company or start my herbal business? What is their one thing that you would tell them? From what you've learned?
Zoë: Yeah, um, I would say, for folks who are ready to start something, there was some some beautiful advice I saw recently, which was advice around beta testing of like, you don't have to go big for your first thing. And, and the advice was, do the smallest version of whatever you're thinking about doing and test the waters. And so I feel, I feel like that is suited for my personality style. And many people and other other people like to go big and just go for it. But yeah, but it doesn't have to be the whole big thing right out the gate. So
Daniella Allam: yeah, I love that. I love that. Because I think yeah, I think a lot of us, I mean, I struggle with that, like, is it all or nothing? Are you into one thing or the other. But I think that approach allows you to have just a little bit more of that grounding, and that stability. Yeah. Before you, you make those big leaps, because eventually, you have to make some big leaps. But, but they don't have to happen all the time. And they don't have to be the way that you get started.
Zoë: Right. And I think the other piece there is, is working with people, like the entrepreneurial journey often gets talked about as a solo journey. And when it goes, well, it is not a solo journey. So whether that's friends or partners, or colleagues, or whatever it is, partnering with people brings a lot. So it's, yeah, I mean, as far as you know, working together with folks, the Emblossom Conference has been so great with Summer and Jacqueline to work with and have some shared enthusiasm and do that and have that be in balance with the other consulting. So I think always, always partnering with folks and intending those relationships is a really critical thing.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, that's, that's so true. And even if you like, I think part of why you you all have been so successful at him blossom is because of that, as well as that you're each able to harness your own strength. And, and, and so it doesn't feel like it's all falling in on one person. And this is a plug to Jacqueline as well, who happens to be my virtual assistant too. And having some somebody like her on a weekly basis to just bounce off ideas, like just another person right there, who was a part of this journey. She's been with me almost since day one. And it's just been so great. And such a grounding force in my life, to have that human connection and that accountability and, and that support in somebody else and not feel like I have to do this all by myself. So I highly echo that. And I want to plug Yes, Jacqueline Smith, as well.
Zoë; Absolutely. And I guess just one other thought there on top of Jacqueline being amazing as a virtual assistant and a cheerleader. And all of that is that part of the wisdom that's come with middle age is that if you are having a certain feeling about something, you're probably not the only one so if you're an entrepreneur who knows another entrepreneur, then you know, those feelings of challenge or loneliness or whatever it is, are probably are most likely not yours alone. And so finding connection around that and support is powerful.
Daniella Allam: So, so critical. And even more in these days where we're the online world really has, has made us I think have just like a more warped perspective of our relationships and what community is or isn't. So I really, really appreciate that. So I wanted to now start talking about Herb Nerd Consulting. And so can you tell us like what what do you do in your consulting business and and the types of clients and businesses that you work with?
Zoë: Yes. So I work with herbal product businesses to help them understand FDA regulations. That's the core of what Herb Nerd does, the way that FDA wrote regulations for herbal products for the most part, they're like really open ended and kind of hard to understand. And there's a lot of things open to interpretation. And there's no great place to look for all the information in one spot of like, what you can and can't say about your products and what kind of documentation and testing you need. And so I work with folks who are often, like, nervous or bewildered about, like, Hey, I just, I'm in this for the plants. And apparently, there's all this paperwork that we have to worry about, and all this testing and all these claims. And so it's helping folks figure that out. And I would say there's a frustrating thing that happens, in that, you know, herbs so often get talked about as unregulated products. And for those folks who are in the herbal business, they know firsthand, it's really not true. There are regulations for herbs, and they're just different than the regulations for drugs. So
Daniella Allam: so when we say herbal products, what kind of products are we talking about?
Zoë: Yeah, herbal products, right. So, in the mind of an herbalist, an herbal product is just something that you use to help you feel better, treat an issue, etc. And in the minds of regulatory agencies, like the FDA, herbal products fit into squarely into three different categories. So they can be foods. So certain teas can be herbal teas can be regulated as foods, they can be regulated as cosmetics. So topical products that are Blists are used to using to help heal wounds or deal with various issues and for any reason that it would be appropriate to apply. Apply a product externally, in the eyes of regulators that is a cosmetic. And then the other category is dietary supplement, which is what we've probably tend to think about most for herbal products. So those are herbal products that are taken internally. They're regulated kind of under the same umbrella as foods, but with more strict regulations around them for testing and things like that. The other category is drugs, there are a few botanicals allowed as drugs. But in terms of what small businesses are able to do, then it's all going to be in the categories of food, cosmetic, or supplements.
Daniella Allam: Got it.That's super helpful. So, um, what are some of the things so if somebody is say, they're like a budding herbalist or they're doing art school right now, or they have an idea, maybe, right, maybe they don't have herbal training, but they have an idea for a product? What would you say are some of the most important things that they should know about starting their business in these types of regulated industries? Yeah, a few different pearls of wisdom, I would say, one is, you're going to be in a regulated category, you need to price your products appropriately to deal with that and to create your budgets, as you move forward to deal with that. So in the world of supplements, there's gonna be a lot of extra testing required, which, you know, it's part of the reason why a tiny tincture bottle where the ingredients don't cost very much, but the product in the end costs a lot because there is a lot of testing required. So building in for that building into support all the extra paperwork that's going to be needed. You know, hiring consultants will be a helpful thing at some point along the journey just to get you on the right track. And so making sure to budget for that as you grow. Yeah, it's a big one. It's a big one, because I think so many people start businesses and, and I see it, you know, even with clients and founders that are not doing necessarily herbal products, but other types of food beverage products, where it's like, you know, you think, you know, you have an idea, it's like, I have an idea, and it's gonna cost me X, Y, and Z. And I'd say, Well, you should add about like 30% more or 50% more because there's all these other things that you might not be aware of right now that you're gonna need. But you will probably need and especially herbal products, you will definitely need if you want to be within the regulation so so it really building that buffer to make sure that what you launch is is done in the right way, I think is so so critical and often overlooked. And or maybe it's just like over confidence or over positivity or, or lack of knowledge about what what really it takes in terms of money.
Zoë: Absolutely.
Daniella Allam: Yeah. So what else?
Zoë: Yeah, the second piece just riffs right off that which is compliance is a journey. So it's a phrase that one of my good friends in quality used to say all the time. And, you know, a couple of great herbal product companies that they work with who are now like in large chain stores and all of that their stories start with, like, I was mixing herbs in my kitchen when the big chain store called to like, see if we could get on shelf. And then I realized I had to address compliance really quickly, because manufacturing in my kitchen isn't going to be appropriate for Urban Outfitters, or whoever it is that wants to sell the herbal product, right. And so, understanding that unless you have a whole lot of money out the gate from investors, and you've got a business plan that you are ready to jump into and make happen with, you know, a strong team of people, compliance is going to be a journey. And so you're not going to be compliant out the gate, and you're going to have to figure out what the most important pieces are to attend to first and then just know that it's going to be an ongoing thing as you grow.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, yeah, that was something that was so you know, and it really also just depends, right? Like on the industry, right? That you're like playing in. Because I came, I came to Traditional Medicinals, from the alcohol industry that I thought was like really regulated, right, and they have their specific sets of regulations and state wide things and things you can and cannot say, from a marketing standpoint. And then I got to Traditional Medicinals, I was like, Okay, this is a totally different ballgame that we're talking about here, particularly when you have like a variety of different products addressing a variety of different needs. So So So, you know, it's so interesting to kind of learn about that stuff.
Zoë: Yeah, yeah, that's why they had forgotten you're in the alcohol industry beforehand. And that seems like such a nice way to roll in. Because within alcohol advertising, there's so much like setting the stage and the mood and the vibes and like, part of what's really helpful in a regulated industry is knowing how to create a brand vibe and a brand promise, without too many words, right? What is it that you're trying to come at, you know, say, without being able to use the words that you really want to so
Daniella Allam: and being like creative about that stuff, right. And just like with the visuals that you're showing, or with the time of day, and, and there were so many things to that, like in alcohol, one of the big things we had to be really careful about was to not, like directly or indirectly make a promise that alcohol was going to make you feel like X, like, if you drink this, you will have, you know, you will get the girl, if you drink this, you will have whatever. So sort of like that, it will unlock some stuff for you. And I think what what I've really appreciated in my career, and these in these regulated spaces is that it forces you like as a marketer, as a founder, as an entrepreneur, to just be a lot more creative. And, and to find ways to communicate what you want to do without without, you know, breaking any laws. So it's very, it's been very educational. And yeah, so what, what, in terms of like, what are the legal requirements for a particular product? What determines that? What determines whether a product say that somebody is developing should be considered a food or a dietary supplement? If it has herbs, for example?
Zoë: Yeah, so great question. And this is probably the hardest one, for folks to kind of wrap their minds around because again, to herbalists, it really doesn't make sense like herbal products that help people are herbal products in the mind of an herbalist, right. And so, whether that's adding more kale to your diet, so you have more greens and iron and like fiber, or whether that is taking ashwagandha on a daily basis, like that's all in an herbal life. Food is medicine and and it just kind of rolls into all the things that herbs can do. Let's see. So, right so the regulatory worlds the purpose or the the category of a product depends on the intended use of the product. So I like to use the example of oats. That's my classic example. So oats, when they're like when the greens are rolled flat you may cook them as oatmeal, that's a food. Oats can also be a dietary supplement. So it tends to be the milky oats or the oat straw, things like that, that we use as an herb to help calm and relax. And then oats can also be used topically as it would fall in the cosmetic category. You know, for folks who have had poison ivy or whatever I've had those been put into an Aveeno bath. A vino is based on oats. And so it's a topical product that can help relieve itching. So it all depends on how you position the product and what claims you want to make around the product. So just to zoom in a little bit more. In the case of tea, there's often the question of is herbal tea, a food or a dietary supplement, and it can go either way. So again, like peppermint tea, you're gonna just label peppermint tea, don't make any claims around it, put that on the shelf, and that's a food. You can also label peppermint tea, for relief of occasional indigestion, you know, may help with alleviating gas and bloating and things like that. So those would be dietary supplement claims. So you're, you're promising more than the nutritional or the flavor value of the thing you were talking about an effect on the body. And so that puts you into the supplement category. And then you just have to be careful with claims to not put yourself into the drug category in terms of saying that, that peppermint tea treats a disease like, you know, the truth is that peppermint may be great for People with irritable bowel syndrome. But because that's a disease, we can't talk about how herbs treat diseases, so we can't say that but we can talk about how peppermint is great for alleviate alleviating digestive issues and gas and some of the other things that do come along with more severe digestive issues.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, I remember, I remember the this this, you know, five year long class that I took with Traditional Medicinals, for how to really talk about the claims in particular, it just felt like every time we had a new product or a new or a new claim that there was more learning to do and, and one of those that I remember was particularly around throat coat, we couldn't talk about sore throat, because that's considered a disease. And in my head, I'm like sore throat is not a disease, like what? But according to the laws it is. So we do we have to be very careful about that. And instead talk about how it supports throat health, which is a little bit more general. So it's like a very nuanced way of using language, that if you're not really careful, like you can really, you know, start going into dangerous territory. But I'm curious, like, what about things. So I've seen a lot of things show up recently, particularly in the beverage category, that talk about digestive benefits, like keep your gut happy, but they're not supplements. And they're either using probiotics, prebiotics, or they're using herbs. So how is that? Like? Are they in the wrong? Are they getting away? How is that working?
Zoë: Yes, so one of the things about being in a regulated industry is there will always be people nearby who are breaking the rules and pushing the edge. And what I often see from small companies is like, well, these people are doing something so can't I say that too, and kind of looking laterally for claims or products that might be appropriate. And it's often not the case, there's many companies, I mean, people have always pushed the edge. And so they continue to push the edge. And right now the line between food and supplements is getting more and more blurred. So food folks are pushing the edge with claims and, and deciding to take that risk. So
Daniella Allam: because it's a risk, right at the end of the day, it's a risk that you and what is that risk? Can you tell us like what is the risk? If you put a claim on your package, like naturally detoxifies, boosts immunity for your food package?
Zoë: Yes.
Daniella Allam: I'm reading off of a very well known beverage brand.
Zoë: It's so interesting, you know, and I'll just say before I answer the rest of the question. As companies grow, they get less risk tolerant. So you know, there's so many people that I talked to that are like, well, we've got ashwagandha in our beverage and we're going to make adaptogen claims but we're going to stay in the food category and it's okay because Rebel's doing it. And Rebel stopped doing that many years ago but it's still in our mind As far as claims that are being made, and larger companies that are willing to make those claims, so I will advise if you're, if you're wanting to push the edge and, and also not be too risky, don't look sideways in terms of competitors, but look up in terms of the largest brands, you can find it in the category. And those will be the ones who have lawyers on staff. And they'll also be more risk averse, because they don't want to attract FDA attention or FTC attention. And what I see right now, too, is that, you know, we tend to worry about FDA as the entity that really cares about regulations and, and companies following those regulations. And to a large extent, that's true, they have some power, they can come inspect you, they can send you warning letters, they can give you a lot of trouble for a while. And it's just better to not attract their attention in the first place. But what I see with regulations is less so about FDA and more about all of the other companies that you'll work with along the way that don't want to have any issues. So it is the web service providers, whether that's Shopify or Etsy all have their own interpretations and enforcement of what they understand that FDA wants. And so they will also follow FDA trends, like what FDA is citing and warning letters is things that they don't want to see on packages. And so even if that's not something that's written into the regulations, that's the current practice, and so they're all trying to keep up with that. So it's service, its web service providers, its stores. So for folks who are trying to get into larger chains, those chains don't want to take the risk and have products, you know, maybe not be available on shelf because they went too far with claims. So it's everybody else, I don't know exactly. And they have a strong feeling that product liability insurance folks also have a lot of care about what we're saying and how far the edge is being pushed. So again, it's it's everybody around you, including the regulators, but not only the regulators.
Daniella Allam: not only the regulators and so what is the so what is the risk? If you what can happen if you're like a small business owner? And you're, you know, you have this some products that are crossing the line? What can happen? Like, do you get letters, you get have to pull back your products? What What should people be thinking about?
Zoë: In terms of regulatory folks, then the issue is mostly with capturing their attention. So if your claims and labels are not correct, then that's a clue to them, that your manufacturing is not going to be done according to what their expectations are. And so you there may be some unsafe practices happening in your manufacturing. So it's kind of like they use that as a first sign kind of what you're saying or how you're labeling to say, Alright, these folks are going to be worthwhile to inspect because they don't seem to know what's going on. So we'll prioritize them for inspection. And then if your facilities are not up to par, then you're in a longer process and, and accountable directly to the regulators to make sure everything is up to expectations. So that can be a long back and forth process. And for the folks that I've known who have been through that. It's really stressful and unpleasant. So so there's that,
Daniella Allam: like the IRS doing a tax audit, basically, that's the vibe,
Zoë: it's the same thing to the blood pressure. Yes. Yeah. And then, and then with the service providers, you know, I've heard many stories of folks in a very small business focus on Etsy. And suddenly, Etsy says, this product is not compliant, you can't sell it anymore. And so if you're reliant on that income through Etsy, and essentially you don't have any recourse with them, then poof, or I've heard it happen with Shopify as well. They have made up a category called pseudo pharmaceuticals. And so they apply that sometimes to supplements or other health products that they think are being incorrectly produced. So I had a client she received, she's got a relatively large business and received a 24 hour notice from Shopify that said, we think you're selling pseudo pharmaceuticals, you have 24 hours to reply. Otherwise, we'll take away your payment processing and you'll need to bring in another service provider for that. So wow, the business disruption that can occur from something like that is is pretty big. It's pretty big. It's yeah, and as you grow, it gets to be more of a an issue,
Daniella Allam: It becomes a bigger risk. And then what about like FTC? Right, because there's also a risk there, right? Like if if a consumer somehow, like calls you out or, or feels like you're making claims that are not true, how does that work?
Zoë: Yeah, the FTC process I am less sure about but what I do know is that FDA and FTC sometimes work in cooperation with each other. So a couple of years ago, towards, oh, God, a couple of years ago, when we were all having, especially bad mental health, because of the pandemic and staying home and just everything that pandemic life brought, they decided to work together to go after products claiming to help anxiety, so like a really common thing in our culture and, and prevalent at the time. And so. So they decided to work together to do that. My impression is FTC cares mostly about larger companies, which is not to say that they don't care about small companies, if they feel like there is a, you know, products are being marketed untruthfully or they're spurious things, then they can come after they can come after folks. FTC has had some of their power taken away from them recently through various court cases. And and I think it went up to the Supreme Court, but don't quote me on that in terms of fines, the decoder couldn't collect from companies. But that's, that's left them doing some muscle flexing. So a couple I think it's about two months ago now. FTC sent it wasn't quite warning letters, it was letters of notice to 600 different companies and everybody from small herbal companies up to the largest herbal companies, reminding them that claims had to be substantiated, and they couldn't promise things that were untruthful and everything needed to be backed by science. And it said getting this letter is doesn't mean that you have been that you're in violation in any way.
Daniella Allam: And so it was a gentle reminder
Zoë: a gentle reminder to companies and and my understanding is that it's a pre notification so that if they do take issue with you later on that you've been warned and so it allows them to collect civil penalties which they could not have pre warning so it's an interesting thing there's some good articles online about it, but they are I think they're trying to do a little bit more
Daniella Allam: yeah fascinating products.
Zoë: So yeah,
Daniella Allam: well I remember to like some of the lawyers at TM in particular sometimes sending us like some FTC ruling or something as to show right like this is what's happened and if there's a ruling about a specific claim or a specific type of product than then that can become like a precedent or something that can then be more difficult for you. So I remember always getting these emails and being a okay noted noted noted about this and this and that thing, but you said a word that is I think a lot of people might not know what it means and and why they need it. And that word is substantiation, what is substantiation and what we are what what does like a one person business need to know about substantiation.
Zoë: Yeah. So substantiation applies most to dietary supplements. So that's the area in which we'll be like, folks will be making health related claims on products, right. And so you need to make sure that there is factual and preferably scientific evidence to support the claims that you're making. And so what that means is, you need to bring together the science and I always bring in the tradition as well, because I feel like traditional use is incredibly valuable, even if our government doesn't think so. Yes, but it's just it's critical, like 2000 years
Daniella Allam: helps context right.
Zoë: The context and and provide a good, a good piece of evidence. So making sure that you understand that or that you have evidence to show that your claim is truthful, that the so that the dosage that you're using in the products is acceptable. So you're not fairy dusting with little amounts of something you know, a small amounts of ginseng to be able to say, hey, there's ginseng in this product that gets all the benefits of ginseng when there's just milligrams in there. That's not going to do anything. And then also to document that your product to safe so when I do claim, substantiation or product substantiation, I look at the dose to make sure that there's enough in the product for that product to be effective, that there is scientific and traditional information to support the claim. And then that the product is safe. And then we've warned the customer about anything that may be a, you know, a contraindication, or a reason why somebody shouldn't take a product. So those are the three the three main things
Daniella Allam: three pillars of substantiation three pillars of a marketer, you know, I'm always marketing it up.
Zoë: I love it.
Daniella Allam: So yeah, that's so interesting. And I love that you brought up the traditional knowledge piece, that's something so prior to even all my work in CPG, I worked I worked at, at a think tank that worked on sustainable development. And particularly, my focus was intellectual property negotiations. And a lot of the things I followed were traditional knowledge negotiations, and access and benefit sharing agreements. And it was so fascinating to learn about like that this is a big global movement that maybe like regulators and our governments are not really paying attention to. But the you know, there was a story at the time of like the Indian government, there was some pharmaceutical companies that were trying to get like a patent for Tumeric as an anti inflammatory. And the Indian government was like, Well, I mean, an Ayurvedic council or whoever were the big guys of ayurveda were like, well, we've known about that for 5000 years. So you can't be patenting the knowledge that we have known, you know, forever. And that is a core part of our traditions. And so I love that that's like your point of view. And I think that it's, it's so important with herbs to also make that link to like, who are the traditional knowledge holders of the benefits of these plants, as, as new plants come on the scene as as new benefits come on the scene. linking back to those folks, I think is just so important. Even Even, like in your marketing copy, even in your story of your brand, it can be something really powerful. It's something we started doing Traditional Medicinals with a brand refresh, is for certain products we started, including, like when it was appropriate, that link to traditional knowledge holders, who were the indigenous people that knew about this medicine. So I love that you brought that up.
Zoë: Yeah, it's critical. I feel like you know, the herbal medicine revival in the US in the past 30 years has been mostly white hippies who have revived the information and, you know, made things accessible, and that that's been really important. But so many of the people who have figured out how to use different plants intended that knowledge for 1000s of years are BIPOC folks who have been left out of the last 30 years of, of herbalism in the US and him I am grateful that that is now changing, and that there's more authentic companies coming into the market of people who are bringing their families traditions to, you know, to make them available. And so it's not this, like thank you for the herbs, we're gonna brand them now and sell them but it is it's so much more authentic, it honors the folks who have held the knowledge and talks about the traditions so much more. And that's really been missing in a big way.
Daniella Allam: And I feel like the medicine, you know, this is maybe more woowoo. But as that as a consumer, I find that that's a stronger medicine too it's like, it's just when you have that connection, and when it's been done and made by someone. You know, I'm half Lebanese, so I'm always looking for herbal practitioners that are made working with plants from the Levant, in particular, and it's just such a difference. Because there's a care, there's a story, there's a history. And so you know, side by side, the product might be the same versus like a regular one you might find. But but an experience, the experience of it, and the end the connection to it, and the emotion behind it is certainly different. So we're almost towards the end. So I feel like this is probably my last question. And this one is more about like resources. So I think a lot of the founders and marketers and entrepreneurs that I've talked with, think that making their their marketing and their copy and their claims compliant is is really difficult. It's difficult. It's onerous, it's expensive, like where do I even get started? Do you have any resources or some ideas where folks can can get started to learn more, and maybe things that can make it a little bit more digestible for folks,
Zoë: as far as compliant copy goes, yeah. I will, I will plug the in Emblossom Conference. It's really it's a conference with it together to help folks understand the regulations in an affordable and accessible way. And also to build community among among business owners. But we talk a lot about copywriting compliance there. So how to do that. I think investing in a little bit of training for whoever is going to be doing the copywriting is really important. And it can save you a lot down the road. The regulations are hard to figure out in terms of what you can and can't say. And they're not complicated. So just somebody to help provide a little interpretation and a little bit of training can help. So there's that.
Daniella Allam: That's great.
Zoë: I'm going to be going to study alcohol marketing and seeing what they can learn from there. Because so so much of working in a regulated industry is establishing the set and setting. So right there's things that you want to say that you can't say. And so it is I often think of it as like that game of taboo where there's one word that you're trying to get people or is it balderdash? Taboo or balderdash? It is, there's one word that you're trying to get other people to guess. And then there's four words that are the most appropriate words that you can't say. And so when we're working in a regulated space, it's you know, if we can make it a little bit fun and gamey like that, it is figuring out how else you describe things. Yeah, now what other words we can use what set and setting, I mean, there was a beautiful real, I saw the other day from an herbal product company. They have a drink mix that helps support sleep. And there were no words, it was just like that drink mix being sat down in a nightstand and stirred and it was like, oh, that's that's what you need to know. And it was like a cozy looking scene. And so setting your scene can be really helpful. And then yeah, just getting creative with language. And I think the last thing about working in a regulated industry is that bumping up against the regulations can be so frustrating, but understanding that they're there for a reason and kind of reminding yourself of that reason can be helpful in the midst of frustration. So whether it's you're working in alcohol, and you want to make sure that people don't become alcoholic or burn out their livers or whatever it is that their safety be to be concerned or to be considered. Or if you're in the herbal product realm, and you hate it when people are making inappropriate claims about products, then remembering that the regulations are there, in part to stop that. If not, that does stop it. And that's very frustrating, but but you can come up with some some rationale for the regulations. And that can be helpful to tune back into in the times where you just don't want those regulations to be there.
Daniella Allam: Oh, I think that's so helpful. Because I think it can be frustrating, like I remember other marketers, sometimes at TM getting frustrated, or people that come from unregulated like food that we're like, why can't we say this? And why can't we say that and having fights with the lawyers. And I never, I never felt that because I was always just like, well, they're there for a reason, and therefore our safety there for everyone's safety. And so, you know, I would also kind of take the approach of instead of feeling like, it's like, Oh, my God, why does this have to be like this thing, the approach of okay, like, let me see if I can work with this challenge. And let me see if I could be a little bit creative. And that will force you to kind of, yeah, make it more fun, right? Make it into like, help, how can I like, work within these confines and these boundaries to still do what I want to do and still grow my business. And I think too, one thing you mentioned as well earlier that I think is worth highlighting is looking to what the bigger companies are doing as like inspo, right, and use that as sort of like a North Star that can maybe help you get started. And then the other that I found is like, sometimes it feels like it's like it's everything that I'm saying noncompliant and it's probably not true and, and maybe you can just like focus, right? Focus on is your product about sleep, okay, so maybe make a little table. These are the things we want to communicate or these are the messages we want to get across. This is how we would want to say it if there was no regulation in the world. And then and then you can leave that other column for your creative thoughts. Now how do you marry the two what you want to get across and what you would like to say but you can't. And so that those are just like tools that I've used as a marketer to to make this scene less annoying. Oh, it's it can be annoying, but wow. Zoë, I feel like this conversation was so full of nuggets and insights and I learned a lot myself as well. And a lot of it was also a really helpful refresher. So thank you so much for for taking the time and sharing with us. Where can folks find you? Where can where can people find you on the interwebs?
Zoë : Yeah, so people can find me. Herb nerd research.com Is my consulting business Emblossom.co is the embossing conference and then flora pottery.com. Is the is the pottery, though on hiatus.
Daniella Allam: So on hiatus, but hopefully back soon, yes. A plug for Emblossom Conference. I will say I've had the pleasure of speaking there a few times. Now. Next year will be the fourth. Oh, wow. The fourth annual and Emblossom Conference. It's always full of such incredible people incredible energy. Such good content as well. And for anybody, highly, highly, highly recommend for anybody in the herbal product space that wants to build community but get some really tangible skills and knowledge to walk away from from that conference. Do you guys have a date for it already? Or that's still in the works?
Zoë; Yeah, we don't have a date. it'll likely be in February. We like to time it for when when folks are indoors and either literally or figuratively dreaming up the year ahead and what they're going to grow. So yeah. Daniella, thank you so much for having me. It's been great to get to talk a little bit more. And thank you for your wonderful questions.
Daniella Allam: Oh, well, thank you for being here. I'm sure it was juicy and so fun for everybody that was listening. So thanks so much.
Zoë: Thank you