S2 E2- A Conversation with Lisa Curtis, Founder and CEO of Kuli Kuli Foods
In this episode, Daniella sits down with Lisa Curtis, CEO and Founder of Kuli Kuli Foods, to discuss her journey as a social entrepreneur. Lisa shares how she learned about moringa’s benefits in West Africa and was inspired to bring it to the US market, overcoming challenges such as investor skepticism and low awareness of the plant’s benefits. Lisa highlights the importance of early consumer research and leading with product benefits, even as a mission-driven company. Lisa also discusses the importance of sustainable sourcing and farmer relationships, and Kuli Kuli's plans to introduce new products and promote other sustainable drought-tolerant crops beyond moringa. She reflects on the company's growth from a startup to a multimillion-dollar business and offers sound advice for entrepreneurs: be strategically small, tell your story effectively, and take care of yourself to avoid burnout.
Where to connect with Lisa on the internet:
Website | Shop Kuli Kuli Foods
EPISODE KEY MOMENTS:
Sustainable food and social enterprise.
Moringa plant's health benefits and Cooley Cooley's role in popularizing it in the US.
Entrepreneurship, consumer insights, and brand growth.
Company strategy and product innovation.
Sustainable sourcing and impact on farmers.
Scaling up a brand through strategic distribution partnerships.
Fundraising and growth strategies for a sustainable food startup.
Episode Transcript:
Daniella Allam: Hello and welcome back, everyone, to the Plantas Pod. I am so excited for our guest today, Lisa Curtis, who is the CEO of Kuli Kuli Foods. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so let me give you the intro on Lisa because she's definitely a powerhouse. And if you don't know your story, which I would her story, I would be surprised that you don't. But let me give you a little background on Lisa, and then we're gonna dive into a very, very juicy combo that I'm sure will have a lot of insights for everyone. So Lisa is the founder and CEO of P Foods, which is the leading brand pioneering the sustainable superfood Moringa. If you don't know, Moringa is a protein-rich, leafy green, and it's more nutritious than kale and it has anti-inflammatory benefits rivaling turmeric. Cool. Equally superfood powders and superfood powders and snacks are sustainably sourced from African women and other small farmers from around the world. She began working on Kuli Kuli while serving in the Peace Corps and has grown it into a multi-million dollar social enterprise with products in over 11,000 stores. Lisa has been recognized on the Forbes 30 under 30 list, and Inc Magazine's Top 100 Female Founders List and has been featured in numerous outlets like the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and on MSNBC this morning, Joe and she's a frequent speaker at social impact and natural food conferences on topics such as supply chain transparency, building, bus fundraising, and entrepreneurship. I am so honored to have you on this podcast, Lisa. So welcome.
Lisa: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, so I've been following the Kuli Kuli journey for a long time as somebody who also lived in West Africa, and that's where I actually first came in contact with Moringa. I was in Mali, and I saw little Moringa farms and rural Mali. And I was like, What is Moringa? I don't even know what this is, there was the signs talking about this brand. This, this plant, and I had no idea what it was. So what made you start this company and really focus on this plant Moringa?
Lisa: So similar to you I was very nearby in West Africa, I was in Niger and doing the Peace Corps. So I was in a very rural village can imagine no electricity, no running water. You know, compared to the Bay Area, not a lot of healthy food. And especially as a vegetarian, I was finding that I was mostly eating rice and millet every day. And it just was a diet that left me feeling really tired all the time. And so I asked some of the women in my health center, you know, what can I eat that will make me feel better. And they literally pulled these leaves off a tree, mixed him into this popular local peanut snack called Kuli Kuli and said Here, eat this. It'll make you feel better. And I had never heard of Moringa I'd never thought to like, you know, pick leaves from a tree and eat them. But I totally trusted these women and really, at that point would have done anything to improve my health. So I started eating this Kuli Kuli Moringa snack every day, after about a week or so just sort of feel so much more energized. Like, you know, my strength returned. I was just it had more of a profound impact on my health and like anything I've ever taken. And so I was like, Whoa, like, what is this plant? You know, what did I take? So I started to do some research next time I got into a city with electricity and got some internet and like, oh my gosh, you know, Moringa is eaten all over the world. It's used in a lot of ayurvedic medicine in India, it's the national vegetable of the Philippines. It's used all over Central and South America for like diabetes and weight management. It's considered to be like, you know, medicinal plant there. And just felt like this plant is so powerful. How do I get more people to grow it and use it? And I wanted to start in my village because I saw that there were a lot of malnourished babies and you know, right off Moringa could be great. And so you know, long story short, I asked these women what can I do to help you grow more Moringa and they said, Look, we're not gonna grow crop we can't sell. How about you help us sell it? So that way back in 2009 was actually the genesis for Kuli Kuli.
Daniella Allam: Wow. That is that is such a wonderful story. And I relate to that so much. Living in West Africa and like nothing, we're running water and also as a vegetarian, like, just sticking to the beans and the carbs as you know, whatever you could get your hands on. I didn't like I remember just seeing Moringa in like a faraway village, but where I was in an urban center, I didn't really have access to that. But I wonder what what my experience would have been, if I had had access to Moringa. that early on even even, you know, just like hearing about it, but never really trying it. There was another herb or another plant that we used to eat a lot in my family, my host family, which was a boabob, which we'll talk about, because I know that there's some Kuli Kuli products that have that plant, as well. But I'm curious. So I mean, I think you know, you the company had this genesis in West Africa, and this is your experience in Niger and the power that the plant gave you. And I think it's safe to say that Kuli Kuli has single handedly put Moringa on the US consumer map right prior to Kuli Kuli being on here. You know, the vast majority of people probably had no idea what Moringa was. So what has what was that process like? And what's been that, that the opportunities and the challenge of really growing awareness for a plant that a lot of people like have never heard of in their life in this market, at least?
Lisa: Yeah, good question. We know, it's interesting. Like, we're the largest Moringa company in the world. And I tell them people like whoa, like, wait, what's Moringa? So it's like, kind of thing. But it is been amazing to see the evolution of moringa and awareness that we've been able to bring over the years, it's, it's not easy, I don't think that building a CPG brand is ever easy. But we certainly didn't pick the easiest route within that of, you know, really pioneering of food that that most Americans have never heard of. So I think, you know, the initial thing is, I came back from Peace Corps, and had a full $2,000 in my bank account. You know, in Niger, I was literally paid $20 a month to give you a sense of what that was like. And I just really just really wanted to find a way to uphold this promise that I had made to the women in Niger that I would, I would help them sell Moringa in the US and had kind of no idea how to go about it, but knew that I was going to figure it out. And so ended up recruiting some childhood friends, you know, one of whom was, was working in consumer packaged good consulting, she was helping big companies like Kellogg's and General Mills, like, do consumer research, and then launch new products. And so we took kind of that same methodology and did it on like, probably a 100th of the budget. And basically, started making different Moringa products by hand first in our kitchen, then in a commercial kitchen. And then we're we're strategically selling and testing at a farmers market. So our goal was to really get as many people as we could to try the product and to do what we call the shotgun surveys of like, you know, what did they try? What did they like? What did they not like? What did they buy? And then, you know, quick demographics, like, male/female, like approximate age, do they have kids with them? To get a sense of like, you know, what did people like, what should we sell? And then like, who based on this, who do we think our target customer is? So we did that for a while. Surveyed over 500 people, and we got some really great insights. And I think the thing that was most surprising to me as a, you know, bleeding heart Peace Corps volunteer as I was going out there being like, yeah, sourced from women in West Africa, helps to plant trees helps to nourish your nutrition, here's where it's sourced. And people would come up to me this Farmers Market booth and be like, Oh, Peace Corps, Oh, I love what you're doing, and then walk away without buying a single thing. Oh, okay. We need to not lead with mission, we need to lead with the benefit. And so then we started testing out okay. Moringa has so many benefits. It's a plethora of benefits, it's got protein, it's got anti inflammatory, it's like, you know, used in traditional medicine all over the world. And so we tried a bunch of things. And the thing that we really found resonated with people with this idea of like, this is like, energy, you know, caffeine-free energy in a leaf. This is like nature's medicine to make your body feel good. And so how do you get that caffeine free energy, you take Moringa and it gives your body all the nutrients it needs to feel better. And so that was something that that we started to learn kind of as well. And I think we've kind of evolved and continued to grow it from there.
Daniella Allam: and that messaging, wow but that's just the music to my ears because I love that the even the the genesis of the company has a lot of consumer research and insights attached to it right. And it's something that I tell folks that I work with all the time that it's so important to do even at the early stages. There are some brands that think, Oh, I'll do that later. You know, I'll do that, like once we reach x, or once we are in this distribution. But I think your story just proves the power of doing that really early on to really refine your messaging, and then find that yeah, like most consumers, they want to just hear with benefit, right? They want to know, what is this gonna do for me. And then the other things like, I think the sustainability story, the sourcing story, is a cherry on top, I think, and it sometimes can be like a driver of loyalty, probably for a lot of people. But to get that first taste, it's like, what is this gonna do for me, and, and I just love to hear that you were doing consumer research really early on, because that's not something that I often see, right with, like early stage brands. And it clearly is, I think one of the reasons why your brand has gotten to where it has been probably right and it's and it's I'm sure you're continuing to look for consumer insights. And and understand them even deeper and deeper so that you can launch better and better products for them. And did that come from, from where did that come from? Like that? Was that from from that person that you brought in? Who had that experience? Who really advised you to do that? Was that also like your own sensibility of wanting to understand and pull apart some insights? How did that come about?
Lisa: Yeah, good question. So, you know, part of it came about from like, pure practicality, like with $2,000, you can't launch a brand onto the market. And so we needed to do was to understand if this thing had legs. And you know, I didn't really have the like, network or like Personal Capital to quit my day job and do it full time until I knew that there was something there. And so it was really like a test in my mind of like, you know, okay, we can, you know, we can work nights and weekends and sell stuff on and do this research and the weekends at farmer's markets. And that's like, the best way for me to understand like, Can this succeed, and that is we spent almost two years like, I think the thing that that folks sometimes forget is like, food is not a flip of the dial, ya know, it's, it's takes a long time. And, and so, but I'm so grateful for that time, like there are many days now, right, like I envy, the Kuli Kuli of 10 years ago. We could like tweak product, you know, one weekend to the next kind of thing. We could like hear feedback, iterate on it, try it again. And it's so much harder now that we're manufacturing, you know, 100,000 plus product units at a time to be able to have that, like rapid iteration. I honestly think it's like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs feel like, oh, I need to fundraise. I need to get big faster. I need to go go go. Yeah. And like, no appreciate the beauty of being small, because there is really some competitive advantage there. And if you lean into it and get things right, then you can scale it from there.
Daniella Allam: Oh, yeah, I think that's such a such a great piece of advice. Because there is this impatience of wanting to get big, very often and wanting to like land that big account glad that big distribution, you know, get get large. But but then like you said, once you are that large, it's really hard to make changes, and it's going to take time, and it's not going to be as a scrappy, and that there's an enjoyment in that scrappiness of that ability to speak with people directly too I think that is such a such a like, under leveraged power of when you're being small, you can actually talk to your consumer like face to face, right like in a farmers market, look at their reactions, look at the thing that sparks them. And then that I think allows you to create a much stronger foundation for the brand to then grow and scale because then at least you have the proof right? That there's that there's something there instead of trying to launch something into the ether because you think it's a great idea. And then you know, having to deal with the problems of wait, the velocity is not here. It's not selling through as much as I thought, oh, people are not using it in the way that I thought they were using it and there goes all my money, time and resources that I put into investing into this product. So I think that's such a that's such a powerful part of the story that I didn't know about Kuli Kuli, and it clearly is, is something that has allowed the brand to grow over time. And I'm curious, like you started the company also, like at such a young age. And I also have to like, before I go there, I do have to give you props, because the fact that you stayed committed to the women that you were working with post Peace Corps, right. And like, that was like a guiding Northstar for you. Is is so important, right? Because I feel like so many of us so many of my friends, you know, after you leave that environment, and you're back in America, sometimes it's like, okay, back, okay, now what about my life, you know, back to like, the grind back to like, okay, maybe I'll get a job here or there. But that connection back to the people that hosted you, the people that welcomed you, the people that you were, like, actively helping, sometimes is lost. So I think that's such a beautiful thing that like you, and I think speaks a lot to your character that like you made a promise and you didn't break it like, like, really, kudos, kudos to you. And the thing I wanted to ask there is that you did that also at such a young age. And now that company is what 10 plus years old. And, and so what has been that experience of like, growing the company, as you also like, grow into yourself as a as a founder, as a CEO, as an entrepreneur and have a larger and larger business over time, like, what has been that experience like?
Lisa: Yeah, it's been a pretty wild journey. I mean, I think, particularly as a millennial, where people are like, Oh, Millennials don't stay at jobs for more than two years. And like, I've been doing this full time for a decade. And you know, a few years before that part time, like getting farmers markets and everything going. So in, in total, since I left the Corps it's been almost 15 years, which is wild, wild, wild, wild. And I think the thing that, that I, that I think about a lot is how starting it from such a young age was like both a blessing and a curse. I think that the curse was apparent right away of like, no investor wanted to give me money, or like, you haven't even worked at a business. You're gonna, like, start a business. You know, you are super young, you're female, like, you know, there were a lot of reason why they wouldn't want to give me money. And then a lot of folks just had real questions of like, What do you mean, you're gonna take this earthy food, you know, earthy tasting green superfood, source it from small farmers in Africa, a continent that in many other minds is not known for providing quality products, and bring it to the US. And I was like, No, this is possible. Like, you can get amazing, high-quality ingredients sourced from the African continent, and we can introduce it to you as consumers in a way that they will love. And they will feel the difference, they will feel the quality in their body. And it, it was something that I think I had to work twice as hard as I got, you know, a lot of my friends were people of color talk about being twice as good. And I think there was certainly an element of me being very young and female and inexperienced, needing to be twice as good. And I think that that pushed me It pushed me really hard. And it pushed me in some good ways. It I think made us very scrappy, like I said farmers markets was our consumer research. You know, when we launched, I went to so we basically took all the farmers market insights and went to a buyer in Whole Foods, Northern California and put together like this huge, like, presentation, everything and it was unbelievable. She was like, oh Moringa what is Moringa we don't have any Moringa let's do it. It was like wild, best sales meeting I've ever had. And so she gave us the green light to start selling during the bars and Whole Foods, Northern California. And so my job then became literally driving every Whole Foods from Sacramento to Fresno. You have no idea how big California is, a long way. Standing there passing out samples, talking to consumers, talking to Whole Foods team members, really just telling everyone the benefits of Moringa the benefits of these bars, how much better they would feel after eating these bars. And, and that was all I did for like, almost a year and that was what gave us then like okay, we're selling really well in Whole Foods, Northern California. Now we can expand all the West Coast, midwest and then two years later, we went nationwide with Whole Foods and that was the game changer for our company. But I think being young and just knowing that I had to like, throw everything I had into this business was very helpful because I gave it my all.
Daniella Allam: Yeah. And I think it sounds like you also had to wear so many hats, right? Like at that stage, you're, you're not just CEO, you're marketing, you're sales, you're supply chain, you're sourcing operator, literally everything you're doing your demos, you're wearing all the hats and just trying to make it happen. But it sounds like then what that allowed you to was also more proof of concept within retailer like Whole Foods in a small region, and then allowed you to continue to expand the business. And so I guess, yeah, also having that energy and that excitement and that commitment to the brand really helped you at that time. And how what would you say now is like, when you look back then at like, what Lisa was doing, then to what Lisa is doing now? How has that journey Like what is the Lisa now, kind of miss and what is like different about like what you've had to learn to do the job that you're doing now running a multimillion-dollar business?
Lisa: Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, I will say, even though we are a multi million dollar business, we're still a small team. So I still wear a lot of hats. But not as many nitty gritty hats, which is kind of nice. You know, I still do paperwork. I still like, you know, we may do a Costco roadshow later this year, I'll be in the Costco warehouse passing out samples. So we still do that occasionally. But I think now there's a little bit more time to kind of work on some higher level things about where is our brand strategy going, like, how do we really, you know, present and work with top customers, and we're having like, you know, some top to top meetings that places like Whole Foods and Sprouts and Walmart, and that is really cool and really humbling to like, be in the room with people who oversee billions of dollars and purchasing decisions and have them like know my name. So, you know, we haven't, like made it by any stretch of the imagination. But I think we've started started to make some waves in this CPG pond. And that has been the most exciting thing. And then I think the other part that I have really held on to tight, you know, kind of narrowing in and out is I'm still really involved in sourcing. So to me, like, I am doing this, because of the impact it has on small farmers and the ways that we can use our supply chain to pull people out of poverty. And so like, I am very involved in making sure that's happening. And, you know, we have an amazing head of operations, and he's super aligned. And he's the one who like, figures out like, you know, okay, how the heck do we get the container from Uganda to California? And when will it arrive? And, and all of that, like, thankfully, I don't do that part of it, because it stressed me out. But still, like in direct contact with our suppliers, you know, they WhatsApp me all the time. We just like, had one WhatsApp meeting this morining, I was on a call with another one yesterday, like that is still a big part of what I do you and it is the other aspect that like brings me so much joy to just hear that we are so so important to them, like and the work we are doing truly matters to them,
Daniella Allam: and is having an is having an impact in their communities. And I think that's so I'd love to hear that as well. Because I think for a mission driven company for a company that has that vision, the CEO becomes yeah, the vision holder, right? The strategy holder, like it's really up to you to because as as a as a company scales over time, the pressures increase, right and the pressure to like, source like something that's maybe not as high quality or, you know, cut costs in this way or another way. And if the leadership and especially I think the CEO doesn't hold that vision dear of like, oh, wait, what are we doing this for? And like, what is this whole? What what is why? Why is the reason for being for this entire brand? And I think that's just so important as a brand grows to kind of keep that and it sounds like you've been really that holder, and also that ability to think more strategically about where will this company go now? Right? Like now it's been 12-15 years of Kuli Kuli so far, what are the next 15 years gonna look like for the brand. And I guess that kind of leads me into my next question, which is about innovation. So I noticed that, you know, at first I remember Kuli Kuli was was focused primarily in Moringa. But I noticed that there have been a couple of products that have been launched with other ingredients like Baobab, like the one we were talking about. So I'm curious what that means for the company strategy. Has it evolved over time? And are you moving from say, like a Moringa company to perhaps something else, like a superfood company or, or a superfood, like so like, sustainably sourced company? What do you see as this like new vision, new strategy for the next, let's say 10-15 years of the company?
Lisa: Great question. So we're at a very exciting juncture in our journey, where we are actually about to launch four new products in March at Whole Foods and Sprouts nationwide that don't have Moringa. And that led us to jump on that list. And it's actually been a part of our strategy since day one. So the reason that we're, you know, called Kuli Kuli, and not Moringa Moringa was this idea of like Moringa, or Kuli Kuli was my gateway to Moringa. And it was this enablement of like, for me to feel better for these women to like, give them you know, they're giving me something they made, something that they really put a lot of thought into, and they're like, here, this will help you feel better. And we want to do that same gesture to Americans all over the country, and we want them to benefit from climate-smart, community-grown, super foods. And so we're so excited to be able to offer really the crops of the future. You know, I think when we think about, like, rice, and wheat, and soy, like, those are not the most sustainable plants, and there are so many, you know, plants that are used a lot less water, they're way more drought tolerant, they're way more nutritious, and they're eaten all over the world, but they haven't really made it into the American diet. And we're the largest market in the world. And so I think what we eat drives, agriculture decisions, nation, you know, worldwide and so what we're really excited about is how do we bring these amazing crops of the future into the US market? And so we've been starting to incorporate more baobab, as you noticed, which is an amazing plant for listeners who haven't heard of it. You've definitely seen it in The Lion King, it's the tree that Rafiki hangs out on.
Daniella Allam: Oh! That's right.
Lisa: Yeah. Oh, cool. It's this giant fruit, you're getting a lot of prebiotic fiber, a lot of magnesium, a lot of great minerals, great for like, both skin health and gut health which you know, there's like this interesting connection there as well. Hibiscus, which people have probably seen the little, you know, red flower, you can like see it in Hawaii, often. California is known for that, and has all these antioxidants, and flavonoids and really great for so many things. And then cacao, we're really interested in sustainably you know, ethically regeneratively grown cacao as well. So we are really building out those supply chains. And you'll start to see more and more products from Kuli Kuli that incorporate that.
Daniella Allam: Oh, that's super exciting. I love me some great innovation. And I think it really speaks also to the needs of the world. Right? I often ask folks like, Why does your brand need to exist versus when there's so many other brands around here around in the world, right, trying to do different things? And I think this focus on thinking about what will feed people in the future right? We talk a lot about food insecurity, how access to food and access to healthy and nutritious food is still it's still a problem and will likely continue to be a problem right as as climate gets worse, even in a place as developed as the US and where we're noticing right also the data shows that people are not getting enough nutrition in their food they're not getting enough fiber they're not getting enough of anything that we're supposed to be getting enough of. And so I think that's really smart and interesting to like really focus on these crops of the future I love it because it it sounds like it's futuristic too but there's also this like ancient route to them right? To all of these and to this climate smart thinking of like where am I gonna get that food and where am I gonna get the most bang for my buck in terms of the nutrition that I'm seeking and that I'm needing that tastes flavor right performance, but also something that is going to be not as damaging and perhaps even helpful to the environment. So I think that's such a interesting place for Kuli Kuli to position itself and and it's it's certainly one where you guys definitely have the right to win right as a company that has made that already a part of its of its ethos like everybody in the natural products industry knows and loves Kuli Kuli, right? For the commitment that you've always had, in particular to sourcing and because I think that's really, it can be really difficult to to have that commitment to sourcing. So I wanted to ask like, Why have that? Why is sourcing been so important? And why is this direct farmer relationship, so important? And, and really thinking about the farmer, so many brands are just like, I'll source it from wherever I can source it. And that's good enough. Why was it so important for Kuli Kuli to have sustainable sourcing equitable sourcing, as a foundation of what the brand is doing?
Lisa: Yeah, I mean, I think every consumer should push every brand to be thoughtful in their sourcing. And I think the danger of just getting, you know, whatever Moringa power is cheapest on the market at that time is, is you really don't know how it's grown. What exactly is in it, like, you know, I'll give Moringa the example, because obviously, I'm most familiar with it, but like, there was just a ban that the EU put on Moringa coming out of India, because there was so much Moringa that was claiming to be organic, but wasn't just like rampant organic fraud. So like lots of stuff with pesticides, lots of stuff with heavy metals. And, and I think that is something that you see in folks who are just sourcing whatever comes in, you know, like, I think the thing that is really important for us is that we are giving consumers, high quality products in every sense of the word. And to me, quality starts at the soil, and it's grown. And you know, the workers being treated, right being paid. And that that is an ingredient that you can like, feel the difference from like, there's like a lot, you know, level of like thought and love that goes into making those products. But I think you it's really like you feel the difference. And so I just think that if we want to have high-quality products, regardless of, like, you know, if you want to make an impact on the world or not, like if you want to have really high-quality functional ingredients, you need to be really thoughtful and how you're sourcing them.
Daniella Allam: And that, yeah, consumers can tell. And I think consumers are getting smarter and smarter. As time goes on. And more and more demanding. We're seeing right that that shift in consumer mindsets, and that wanting that transparency, wanting that accountability. So if you're saying you're doing this, I really want to know that you're doing that. Right. And so I think, yeah, behooves brands to start thinking about this a little bit more, holistically, sustainably, and really with the consumer needs in mind, because at the end of the day, right, they're the ones making these decisions, but they have an impact on this entire system, this entire supply chain, which is something I remember at Traditional Medicinals, where I worked for a long time where we sourced you know, I don't know, hundreds, perhaps of different plants from all over the world. It was always a concern sometimes where for example, if a product was declining in velocity, one of the big questions we would talk about is like, well, now this is going to impact the farmers, right? Like, if the product is not selling well now, like the commitment we made to buy X amount from them. May May may be maybe in maybe an issue now like have you experienced that? Is that a conversation that happens in the Kuli Kuli board meeting rooms board rooms? about like, what is the impact that fluctuations have?
Lisa: I think the biggest example of that was COVID Right? So when, like, the world's shut down and we had multiple months for distributors were so busy, like getting toilet paper and canned beans to market that like we had months where they weren't picking up our products, which was so frustrating. And so we got into this crazy situation where we had and we build up all this inventory. We were supposed to launch into 800 new Walmart stores in April of 2020 We all know what happened in March of 2020. Like that got totally shelved and we had all this inventory and then at the same time, like our suppliers had very little way to export and so we like basically like built had this kind of like mountain of Moringa built up they were building up like product there and we couldn't like the supply chain wasn't working you know we can we can get up here. And it ended up actually like having lasting impacts where you know, then we had to like first sell through the inventory. They had to figure out how to get it all here. So but there was this pause, there was effectively a pause like a freeze on our sourcing. And that was really, really painful. We had some suppliers who like, went out of business, and it were like, basically nothing we could do about it. And we gave, you know, some suppliers, we like prepaid on future purchases, because we just wanted to, like help them stay alive. And like, we did kind of everything we could from afar, but it was a really dramatic case study and like how important we are to the farmer groups that we work with.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, and the Yeah, the impact that like a positive or negative impact that can have and it's a lot of responsibility to as a brand, right, to know that so many people also depend on on like, the job that you're doing here in the US, of selling, I'm innovating with these products, so that their livelihoods are insured as well.
Lisa: Totally. And I think one of the things that we're really excited about building out more of a platform for these amazing, you know, nutritious crop is that we can now start to help diversify their businesses in the same way that we're diversifying ours. And we don't have any, like, right, or a few of those built in, like, you know, we've been working with many of our suppliers for 5, 8, 9 years, but they can sell on anyone they want. And so really, for us, it's like how do we help build up your businesses? And how do we make it so that you can continue to supply Moringa to Kuli Kuli, and also supply biologically and mechanically cool, and how can you do that? To supply you know, whoever else wants to buy it to really cool way of kind of, like, our businesses like regeneratively growing together?
Daniella Allam: Yeah, and growing it, yeah, for them, and not just like, yeah, trying to monopolize, I guess, also the market of their products. And, and I think that also speaks to a really smart kind of category. View, as well of like, you know, that buyers love to hear, right, that you're gonna not just like grow it for yourself, for your own brand, but you're gonna grow the category, like hopefully other brands will also start to source these, these ingredients, these products, and, and just provide more access to people if that's truly what we what we want to create. So I really love that. And I think we've mentioned Walmart a couple of times. So I really wanted to talk about about, you know, going to the big guys, I've also seen you I'm a loyal Costco shopper, I've seen you there for a very long time. And it's always been impressive to me, right? Because as a Costco person, I see brands go in and out of there every single day, right? Like, it's just like people, it's very hard to last on those shells. And so I'm curious, like, what is the advice you would give entrepreneurs that are trying to get into these like big heavy hitters? Like the Walmarts, like the Costco, what have you learned in those in that process?
Lisa: I mean, don't start there, like, you know, I think small brands like they can easily overwhelm your supply chain, I think Costco in particular, you know, can go big, and then they can stop. And you know, they're really diligent, like they ask brands, like, what percent of your business are we, like, that's on the buy dock now at Costco, want to break your brand? And I think it's important not to lie, you know, like, you don't actually want Costco to be 50%. Because like you said, like, their whole business model is the treasure hunt, like they are looking for, you know, they want Costco members to come in and be like, Oh, today, there's moringa powder, and then I need to buy it right now. Because tomorrow, it might be matcha better, who knows? And so I think, you know, that's kind of what like, Walmart, I think, is a very different beast. And I think Walmart, the thing is, like, you just have to be you have to kind of test and then the thing we did very deliberately with Walmart is we started out in 500 stores. And it was like, you know, our buyer like let's just see, let's see if this works for you. Let's see another works for me. And we've expanded from 500 stores to 3000 stores. We are now in you know, majority of Walmart's in the US which is pretty cool. And so I think just like starting slowly and building over time, and that that hasn't been an overnight thing. You know, we launched into Walmart in 2019. And it's now that we're in so many stores. So just kind of having some patience with it.
Daniella Allam: And taking your time, like not trying to rush and feeling like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta get in. And I gotta do this right, right here right now. Especially like, I think, what you said to have like, don't try to start there. I think sometimes even with Walmart, because I think Walmart is trying to be a little bit less, like I think their strategy has moved a little bit from, they don't want to be the follower, so much of these new items, innovation, especially natural products. So sometimes they're really excited to bring you in. But it might not be the right time for your brand, like your supply chain might not be figured out just enough to do that yet. And I think that that's a hard thing for a lot of brands to say no to, I would say, but it also comes like if you fail at Walmart, you know, it's a spectacular fail, and it will cost you a lot of money. So I think it's an important thing to think about of like, when when do I grow my distribution? And what type of distribution do I want to grow and maybe just start with some of these natural, you know, retailers first, really test out really get the the learnings and the insights so that once you get to that larger, big guy, you have something in your pocket and or doing it like you said in a very small way in a retailer like that. But even that 500 stores is probably a lot for certain brands, right? That are that. But they're like, oh, but if I just like if Walmart told me that I that I'm in, I would totally do it. It's like, Wait, are you ready? Are you ready for what that means? To execute as well? Because I think a lot of times folks think like, Okay, I'll get the distribution, and then all my problems are solved. And then I like to say like, that's kind of when your problems begin. Because then you have to like you have to like sell it, you have to improve the velocity, you have to make your supply chain, make sure have you experienced that, like, has it was it like, we got distribution. And now like, we got to make sure to keep it up and keep showing the results and invest in our marketing and our sales? Like how did you have to approach these bumps in distribution?
Lisa: Yeah, I think that was like, hammered into me very early on, so that the forager at Whole Foods, who was the person who we met at the farmers market, just get the meeting with a Whole Foods buyer was like, Look, the goal, like you're gonna think that you made it because you got on the shelf, the challenge is not getting on the shelf, the challenge is getting off the shelf, you get on that shelf, you better do everything you possibly can to get off, get those products to move. And so I really took that to heart. And I think that's something that we we really think about is like, how do we make sure that we are set up for success? And like, how do we check in with our retailers understand the data understand, you know, are is this working? Because if not, like, it's better to exit gracefully than to get discontinued.
Daniella Allam: Mm hmm. Exactly. And I guess a question that kind of goes hand in hand with growth and distribution is about investment. So you said at the beginning, you know, investors wouldn't give you a dime because you were so, so young. And, you know, they didn't really see the concept just yet. So when did you actually fundraise and at what stage of the business and how did you know like you needed to fundraise and what what led you to find the right partner to inject that that money into the business?
Lisa: Yeah, so I mean, you know, I think there's like there's like that idealistic of like, ideally, we would have waited until we had distribution and like proven points and then there was the reality of like, I didn't have the money to like fund it myself. And so you know, once we got the green light from Whole Foods, like we did a crowdfunding campaign to do our first manufacturing run, but then even just to like, stay on shelf and like drive velocity and expand and continue to do manufacturing runs like we needed cash. So I started fundraising really, really early. I think, you know, if you have if you have the the personal capital or like friends and family to like, not have to run reserve early. It's way better to wait. But we started fundraising almost right away. And I joke not joke that I've raised like every type of capital that exists. we raised angel investment, crowdfunding, grants, loan, venture capital, strategic.
Daniella Allam: Oh, yeah, literally all of them.
Lisa: Literally, we've done everything but private equity. And hopefully, we'll never have to do that. So he, we have raised a little over 11 million in total. And, you know, I think have spent, I've spent a lot of time like trying to find investors that were really mission-aligned that, you know, we're excited about us really building a sort of sustainable business, and not just like a pop itself kind of thing. So I think, you know, I genuinely really like all of our investors, we have really good relationships with all of them.
Daniella Allam: And it sounds like it was, you know, it was really driven by the needs, that you had the operational needs, the needs as the company grew, you're just like, we need more of this, of capital to be able to, like, continue and sustain and maintain the growth that we're seeing. Yeah, because a lot of folks wonder about that, like, when is the right time? And it's like, well, kind of when you when you need it, right, like.
Lisa: But I think the other thing I learned over the years, because, you know, now I've done three rounds of fundraising is that it's also important for it to be milestone based. And so like for us, the first round, you know, was really about like, we have the green light from Whole Foods, Northern California, we need the capital to fund that. So that was our angel investment round. Our series A was really about Whole Foods launching us nationwide, it was like we have this incredible opportunity, how do we get there our a series B was about going into conventional going into WalMart, going into Costco going into other larger retailer then playing to the masses. And so I think those types of milestone-based fundraisers really resonate with investors because they can see pretty directly, okay, if I give you $1, you're gonna turn it in to $15. Because you're, you're using it to fund this thing, and it's gonna lead to exponential growth.
Daniella Allam: And being and being very specific is also what I hear about, like, what that milestone is, and I think that's really helpful for for folks that are listening, because sometimes, I've seen decks that are like, Oh, we just want to grow our distribution. But like, maybe it's not as targeted, like we don't know, but we just want to grow who you know, and maybe that's not as sexy as knowing exactly, like, we want to grow at Whole Foods. Step one. Okay, step two, is this. And so I think that's really, really helpful. As we wind down, I'd love to hear what would you tell like other entrepreneurs that look at you and look up to you? Because I do know a lot that actually look up to you. And what you've been able to do with Kuli Kuli? What would you tell them? The ones that are like in that early stage of their businesses? Is there a decision that you made early on that you're really proud of? Or, or just like a some advice on state of mind for them at this early stage of their businesses? And they want to be where you are? Eventually they have this mission alignment. They have a strong mission a strong product. Hot, what would Lisa say?
Lisa: Yeah, I would say three things. So and we are make these quick, I would say one, like, be strategically small, while you're small, like be strategic about how you are small use that for consumer insights you like leverage that don't just dream about being big, like, be strategically small. While you're small, I think two like, tell your story, like why are you doing this, like people believe it, they're at the beginning, like what the thing that they believe in is you and I need to know why you're there. And so making sure to communicate your drive. And then the third is that businesses don't fail, founders quit. And so you need to do everything you can to like sustain yourself, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Take care of yourself, sleep, drink, water, exercise, eat healthy food, you know, get the basics done, so that you have the ability to show up for your business and the rest of your life in the way that that it deserves.
Daniella Allam: Oh, I love that. Okay, those three gems are amazing. I'm gonna note them for myself as well. And I think it's a great place to end the podcast. Thank you so much, Lisa for coming on. I think there was so many insights I learned a lot about your journey and Kuli Kuli and I'm sure others will find it very, very valuable and insightful. Thank you for coming.
Lisa: Thanks for having me.