S2 E3- A Conversation with Lauren Haynes, Founder and CEO of Wooden Spoon Herbs
In this episode, Daniella sits down IRL with Lauren Haynes, Founder and CEO of Wooden Spoon Herbs. A trained herbalist and 3rd generation entrepreneur, Lauren shares her entrepreneurial journey starting with the genesis of her brand at a farmers market in 2014. She recounts her early experiments with herbal products and how she expanded from local sales to a national presence, recently securing a significant distribution deal with Whole Foods. Lauren discusses how she has evolved and grown as a leader alongside her business, emphasizing the support, resources, and mentorship that have been critical to her success. She highlights the challenges and opportunities of building a successful herbal supplement brand, including the need for a clear vision, focusing on products that truly matter to consumers, and connecting to a deeper 'why' beyond just making money.
Where to connect with Lauren on the internet:
Shop Wooden Spoon Herbs | Find them at a Whole Foods near you!
EPISODE KEY MOMENTS:
Wooden Spoon Herb early days
Experimenting with products and gathering consumer feedback
Brand growth and distribution partnership with Whole Foods
Product development and refinement
Making herbal products accessible
Fundraising for a natural products business
Scaling a brand
Episode Transcript:
Daniella Allam: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited for our wonderful guest today. And even more excited because she happens to be here with me in the flesh. Hello, Lauren
Lauren: Hey, Daniella. I'm here in the flesh. It's true.
Daniella Allam: flesh and bones. This is a first for the Plantas Pod. So welcome to this new way of doing our podcast. I, if you don't know, Lauren, you should. And if you don't, I'm gonna introduce her to you. And I want you to also look up her incredible brand. So Lauren Haynes is a clinical herbalist and entrepreneur, she founded the incredible wooden spoon herbs in 2014 out of her kitchen, and from the farmers market to Whole Foods Market. She has led this emerging herbal brand to the masses while maintaining her grassroots origin. Wooden Spoon herbs works with traditional herbal remedies, bringing them into the 21st century and stocking your pantry with functional staples. What a lovely bio. Thank you so much to be for being here. Lauren. I'm so excited.
Lauren: Thanks for having me.
Daniella Allam: So I love to kick off usually the podcast with some context and the story of of, of your entrepreneurship journey. So when did it start? And where did this idea for Wooden Spoon Herbs come from?
Lauren: It started, I mean, my whole life, really; I'm a third-generation entrepreneur. I didn't grow up necessarily with family businesses, but my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, were entrepreneurs and my mom's brothers. So my maternal uncle was an entrepreneur. So I saw I kind of modeled my whole life and I always knew that's what I wanted to do. I wasn't sure how, but I knew I was going to be my own boss, I could tell in my future was some sort of like very challenging, but interesting path. And I was just kind of waiting to figure out what that was going to be. I like as a kid started the project where I like made gourmet dog treats and sold them door to door. And then I sold like vintage clothes and handmade jewelry, you know, in my like late teens, early 20s and just kind of dabbled and always worked in local food businesses in Tennessee, where I'm from, I'm from Chattanooga. So I always was kind of in the slow food scene and really got familiarized with different sort of supply chains through that community. And then that kind of led me into you know, combined with like, the passions I grew up with, right, like I've always been into nature, kind of coalesced into Wooden Spoon Herbs and the farmers market. I was working for a bakery all through college and the farmers market that we had a presence at was where I started Wooden Spoon back in 2014. So it's been quite a journey since then. I had no idea what I was doing. I think my, you know, blissful ignorance got me very far. And let's yeah, happy to answer more specifics about the last 10 years.
Daniella Allam: First of all, congrats, that's such a huge milestone. Not many businesses make it that far. And and the fact that yours is is still here, it's growing. you're launching new products you're growing distribution deserves a lot of kudos and congrats. So first of all, little little Bravo. So where did where did the idea I guess for for to make herbal products, you had herbal training beforehand and that's where you decided that you wanted to bring it to the masses. There's a lot of herbal products out there. So what what made you feel that this is where you wanted to head? And what were the first products that you launched?
Lauren: Yeah, well, I think going back to like, I was waiting to see what that entrepreneurship drive what what the intersection of that passion was going to be. And so before I even thought about starting a business, I had discovered herbalism. And it was really such a convergence of my interests and passions that it was a huge lightbulb for me. And I was like, This is what I'm meant to do. This is what my life's purpose is. I'm dedicating I'm jumping all in. And so I so in Chattanooga, there was there isn't really much of a herbal community or even like alternative medicine or like complementary medicine community. But what there is, is a lot of beautiful food producers and farmers. And so it was kind of just natural for me to start working with people being like I was growing herbs in my garden, I was excited to see people selling herbs at the farmers market. I was like, Hey, I wonder if they would grow this or that, for me to work with. And I just fell in love with herbal medicine. And so it kind of just made sense that I was like, I'm going to try a project I was going to like, hang my shingle and see what happens. And I had been doing really intensive self study and just kind of like reading everything I could get my hands on and putting the puzzle pieces together and making tinctures and making all kinds of things, you know, in my kitchen is being like, what if we add herbs to this? What if we add herbs to this? So it's really experimental, and scrappy. And like, I had no idea like, I didn't have this grand vision and
Daniella Allam: it was just you, you and your lonesome for a long time, wasn't it?
Lauren:Totally. Yeah, yeah, just for the first four years, it was one woman show maybe five, maybe first four or five years. And my first product so I set up i right hung my shingle at my friend's Holiday Market in 2014. And I was like, let's just make the classics, right. So we're gonna make I remember so clearly, I I'd gotten out I was like, well, maybe I should get a wholesale account. And I could order bulk herbs because I wanted to make all these tea blends. And, you know, that takes a lot of plant material. So I wasn't able to do it was like what was in my garden. And I remember the email came through and it was like, congrats, congratulations, you've gotten approved for a wholesale account and I was like, Oh my God, I've made it you know 2014 And, and I remember, I gotten that email and I spilled something on my laptop that day. And so I remember going into my closet like digging out my like old clunky, like Dell or whatever, like laptop and like plugging it at like somehow got it to turn on so that I could like accept it like order my herbs, because I had like broken my computer. And yeah, and so then at the market I ended up making enough money to buy a new computer and that felt very full circle and like then we move forward. So I set up and I made the classics I made elderberry syrup, fire cider, cleansing grains, like a little oat scrub, I made tiny miniature hand-dipped beeswax candles I sold and little bundles that was very fun. Wow. Tea blend spaces. And so that was really fun and successful. But it was really just a test of like, I don't know if people will be into this this is it'll be really fun to find out. But then I sold out is a two day market and I sold out the first day so then I had to wake up at 5am The next day, make new batches of everything and then I sold out of that again. So that was when I knew Okay great. There's like there's a need that there's a desire to learn more people are excited. There's just not really anyone doing it here where I am. So it started very, very local.
Daniella Allam: And so how did you go from that like local to now national footprint that you have like what when did that transition happen?
Lauren: 10 years later it happened maybe so. So that was late 2014 Right holiday season 2014 2015 I was working. I was waiting tables. I was doing Wooden Spoon at the farmers market on the side and then I through my job and really through just like meeting people had gotten a contract job in herbalism for someone who did a gut health educational program, she had, she was a former founder, she had exited a crop company, actually. So she did this like gut health focused certification course. And she hired me to be the contract manufacturer for all of her bitters that she used in her program. So that I got to learn, you know, shipping and receiving, how manufacturing at scale works like all the ropes of those kinds of things, which is really special experience. And then by 2016, I had decided to do Wooden Spoon full time, and that's when I created an opened up a wholesale program. And organically, I mean, even to date, like 95% of our wholesale accounts have been inbound, I think people are just likes the look and wanting to experiment and see if their customers were in to it. And then they were.
Daniella Allam: Wow, I love that story. Because it just shows how really planting the seeds early on and really getting, you know, rolling up your sleeves, getting in the weeds really has positioned you to where you are now, which is a very exciting place. Because you're debuting at Whole Foods in March. And so tell us about how that that came to be. Did you have your sights set on them for a long time? And what was that process? How did you know that you were ready for distribution? And how did you get there?
Lauren: Great question. That's right. So that was the origin story. Here we are a decade later, a lot has happened. The business has grown, you know, exponentially and beyond. And Whole Foods, I mean, has always been the dream retailer, I think, you know, I started my company when they were still independently owned. And it's the biggest natural grocer in the nation. And so I think just for like visibility and accessibility, which is so important to us as a company, it's always been a dream. And it's actually funny story. I haven't told many times about how we knew we were ready. And I feel, you know, this is 2024 we're launching in mid March, April into every Whole Foods in the nation by sku's brand blocked the whole nine incap, et cetera, look out for us. We I do feel very ready. I've never I wouldn't feel this ready. So we actually started talking to Whole Foods regionally in gosh, 2020. Okay. And they were really excited. And they were they're really excited, I think to bring on a regional brand in the supplement space, because there aren't very many, right? I'm from Tennessee, the southeast there aren't that many we have you know, Asheville, North Carolina has a really vibrant herbal community. But it's, it's a little contained. And then obviously, on the west coast, it's like very prominent and widespread. So we're talking regionally and I started thinking, I was like, You know what, our branding at shelf like, this is the biggest opportunity we can ever have. We only have one shot, we're never gonna get this again, I made the decision to pull the plug on moving forward at the time, and I told the buyers at Whole Foods regional. I know this sounds crazy, but I don't think we're ready. Here are the moves I want to make. And here's the timeline I want to make it on even though the timeline was 18 months. I was like I know we have work to do on our visual representation on shelf which ended up turning into the reason and the the reason really and the strategy behind our visual rebrand that we launched at the end of 2022. So that was wait 2020. Fast forward to 2022. Then once once so we went through a visual rebrand. With an agency who mainly works in food and beverage they had had, they've done one of their supplement brand. But when you walk into Whole Foods, they're responsible for all the brands you know, and love Magic Spoon, Graza, Lavvaa Yogurt. I mean, so many others. I'm like not even remembering in a moment. But so we worked with them because we were like, We want to be that in the supplement space. Anyway, so once that was getting close to cohesion and launch, I revisited the conversation with the buyers because they had been very generous and, you know, saying they'll take you off cycle like we're very excited. So I revisited the conversation with them in maybe mid 2022. And they wrote back immediately. And we're like, amazing, so great to hear from you. And all of a sudden we were looped in with the global buyer for all the Whole Foods in the country. That's kind of how it happened. I remember seeing seeing this new name pop up on the thread and be like, that's peculiar and like looking up who they were. And I was like, oh, okay, we're doing something different now. So that's kind of how it happened. We just kind of they had seen the brand's growth and been kind of keeping tabs on us. And so once we were ready, they were like, we're actually going to put you into this bigger strategy and it's like bigger vision.
Daniella Allam: That's so interesting. So I didn't know that so you know it that took a lot of courage to say no right because it sounds like they were ready to bring you in regionally and you know, most entrepreneurs would be like, That's so crazy that you would have said no. But what was it that gave you you said it was something to do with the packaging, the branding? What what was behind that? What did you feel that your packaging or your branding wasn't doing. And that would maybe hinder you if you were to launch at that time.
Lauren: I think our branding was amazing for direct to consumer, but I do not think it had the education and that point of connection with the plants or like with what's inside the bottle, that we need to stop someone in their tracks, you know, and taking the packaging to a Whole Foods and putting it on the shelf and saying like, actually, this kind of gets lost in the set versus now, you know, I did the same thing when we were like developing some of our new SKU labels, it's it stands out which in all of these ways that I wouldn't have expected because they are pretty simple labels to the you know, like, in, in certain ways.
Daniella Allam: Well, in the sense that there's not like that many colors.
Lauren: There aren't many colors, exactly. But I think they're visually stunning. They are aesthetically inspired by things that are very different from most of what you see on the shelf, you know, they're very bulky, that very handcrafted looking. And they have plants on labels in a very beautiful illustrated way, which is rarer than you think in the herb space. So yeah, I think it was our skews at the time had like one main logo, and then what changed on each label was the product name. And I just, I just knew it wasn't enough.
Daniella Allam: And you knew that like from talking to folks within the retail space, or just like your intuition?
Lauren: a little of both
Daniella Allam: And or just like the feeling that you know, this is not when you're looking at it, it's not really translating as well.?Yeah, some of all that I think some of all that I had had conversations, because we had just done like a packaging evolution. And we worked with an amazing artist who I love her work, and she works a lot in the music industry. And so people were like, You're crazy. You're like redoing everything again, because it's such a process, right? Since I've been time-consuming, but I was like, No, we're not there yet. And I am that like to a fault kind of person where I was like, Nah, are not there yet. You know, like, it's not perfect, but I think you'd have to if you don't, if you don't start out capitalized, which like I didn't even know what that concept was. It's just an iteration iterative process. So yeah. Yeah and I think it also shows how, how, really the vision that you have for the business, right, and as there's so much responsibility in leading a business and being CEO, and just sticking to the vision, like I know that there's you know, sometimes folks around in the company or collaborators might not understand the vision or the reason for why you're making something that a might cost a lot of money might cause a lot of ways you might have to scrap stuff. But But it all I think now in this story, what's so interesting is that now that also allowed you to go even bigger than you even thought at the beginning. So just taking that time to really refine that packaging, and really focus on the things that really matter from a consumer standpoint, I think will really really stand out because it is true to like in terms of the products. So what are the products that you're launching at Whole Foods?
Lauren: So Whole Foods is bringing us into their stress and mood category which is perfect because that's really where we shine. Our top sku's are all in that category. So we have our hero SKU our Blue Lemonade, Magic Magnesium
Daniella Allam: Woo! I love that guy.
Lauren”So we have magic magnesium at every Whole Foods in the country, which honestly gives me chills It's so insane to me. This is my favorite product. I'm magnesium die hard especially like as a clinical herbalist it's always what I was recommending to people so that's really like how it came to be is because I just believe in it so hard and I've seen it work time and time again in so many different instances in the we have two tinctures our best selling it was Anxiety Ally but we renamed it Tranquility Tonic for compliance which I'm sure all of your listeners would appreciate the OSHA compliance and Tranquility Tonic
Daniella Allam: the supplement herbal folks are minds and pretzels with all these different regulations the right that that need to fit Dr. Zoe Gardner we had a great episode if you haven't listened to that one i n the podcast by the way, listen to it because she gives a lot of really great tips. So you have tranquility tonic shout out Zoe's shout out Zoe
Lauren: Tranquillity Tonic, which is unnerving formula that is holy basil and oat tops and skullcap and ashwaganda and lavender. And then we have Rose Colored Glasses, which is similarly it's so I would say like tranquility tonic is more of a calming formula. And then we have Rose Colored Glasses, which is like a mood lifting kind of euphoria formula with Rose and Passionflower and Hawthorne. And both of those are low alcohol or alcohol free. And then we have two capsules that are exclusive formulas for Whole Foods that I'm really excited about. One is called Brain Bloom. And it is a nootropic cognitive support formula that I am calling like the flow state pill, it's like instant flow state. It's really incredible. I've actually never experienced anything that I feel, really helps me think differently and think more clearly. I feel like that's kind of like a pie in the sky idea, but this formula really nails it. It's circulation. So traditionally, like gingko, and then also Rhodiola. And some believe Lion's Mane, turmeric, bacopa
Daniella Allam: Bacopa. I was gonna say, but I know Bacopa is good for that.
Lauren: Yes, yes, that's fantastic. It's magic. And then we have Stress Savior, which is basically like every supportive adaptogen you could think of, so it's Eleuthero. It's american ginseng, it's Rhodiola again, ashwagandha. And these are the capsules. So they're easy to take consistently. And they're only at Whole Foods. Well, that's such a funny question. As you're talking I'm remembering like my original thoughts. So I think my original idea because going just touching on accessibility for a minute, I think I you know, we all have such a kind of like knee-jerk reaction, maybe away from buzzwords, especially in like marketing and trying to think before we're looking at marketing. And so when I think about accessibility, it is those things is how do we get someone adopting an herbal practice into their life when they might think that herbs tastebad or mushrooms taste that and it's right. It's like, you start with the flavor of the formula and the formulation. And then of course, price point and like distribution and all of these pieces, but when I started wind spinners I was like, Okay, great. Here's my shortlist of 10 10 which is my shortlist. But here's my shortlist of 10 concerns people are coming to me with at the farmers market, right? So it was like sleep, stress, memory/focus. Pain, pain is a big one. gut health is a big one. So all kind of like GI distress and kind of like took that list, paired it with what herbs were available to me in my bio region and from the farms that I was that were available to me for sourcing. So that was like a tiny list of like a dozen farms. So that was kind of like my palate, you know, my goals. And then my, you know, naive brain at the time was like, well, the other part of accessibility is exactly to your point. It's like all these different form factors. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have I'm gonna make sure I always have tinctures, powders, tea, capsules, and I was like, we're gonna do it all.
Daniella Allam: Amazing. So run to your Whole Foods folks to get these. And, I mean, I'm not paid or sponsored or anything, but I just have to say that I really love your products. And I've been using them for a while. And I think what you nail really well as as a company, is that not only are the products like that they work they're also delicious. So like Magic Magnesium, for those that you don't know, is this incredible, powdered magnesium, right? It tastes a little bit like lemonade. And it turns blue when you when you when you put it in water. So it's so visually stunning, but it also tastes so good. And it and I just think same with Rose Colored Glasses. I love that formula. Because it just, it really is a product that you tasted and I already feel like I'm putting Rose Colored glasses, I'm no herbalist. I don't know about the doses or anything like that. But I think you know, you've done such an incredible job of also making them accessible, whether by by the taste, or whether the format because some of these herbs, I believe, like I think maybe Bacopa or something, right? It's not necessarily I think we were talking about it in Traditional Medicinals that it's not like super water soluble and the taste is kind of off. So it's interesting that you putting it in in a capsule format to make it accessible for folks. So how did you go about how do you think about your innovation in terms of like product formats? We're going to do all the forms!
Lauren: When I started, I probably had 40 different products listed on my website because I was just making things and you can make it it's such a small scale and that was really how I started testing but I had something for everyone. And that was always important. So now now it's really interesting because tinctures were our bread and butter for the probably the first eight years and we like grew on our tincture line. I think tinctures are a nice form factor. But I'm starting to wonder because even at Whole Foods I'm hearing tinctures are their number one form factor. So I'm really curious what kind of if there's a shift or if there's more of an adoption and like open mindedness if there's more education going on right now some of the like all the above. But tinctures are not my focus. So I'm thinking more about the crossover to a mass consumer which feels like such a funny thing to say like as an herbalist, especially when coming from such a grassroots place, but start to think about getting really curious about that mass consumer and like how they interact with herbalism like are they taking a greens powder. That's so cool. Like, what does that look like? So that's kind of where my mind is right now with the magnesium. Like I said, it's, it came from me recommending it to literally everyone and sending them elsewhere. And then being like, I really want I think I could do better than like, where I'm sending them to,
Daniella Allam: Right, which was probably like capsules, or
Lauren:which was I did not like capsulized magnesium, I think it needs to have the surface area of being a powder in the GI tract.
Daniella Allam: Okay, let's get into curious about that.
Lauren: Well, yeah, and I mean, I kind of have that validated by like Paul Bergner, because he talks a lot about like food powders and like powders for gut powdered herbs for gut health. So he's even like, if you're working with any kind of GI concern, even like powdered Chamomile is going to be better than a capsule. One, because you need such a exquisite metabolism to break down a capsule shell. And I mean, we have capital, sure, but like, and two just you want as much surface area touching the herb for bioavailability, which again, is one of those buzzwords that people love to think they understand, and I hope that they do. But there's a lot of factors in bioavailability, including metabolism, including like, right, like how much of the herb is touching your actual tissues and available for absorption. So that's why I love powdered magnesium, because even if you're mixing it into water, you're still like, all of that's touching, you know, all of your GI tissue. And I think it works really well. I think right now, I call it the great magnesium wars. A lot of people are saying that glycinate is the most bioavailable form of magnesium, I would say if it's working for the intended purpose, then you're doing great. And I don't think people should get caught up in the,
Daniella Allam: in the nitty gritty of the like form of magnesium. Yeah, that's so interesting. You said that, because without even knowing that I had taken, you know, magnesium capsules for a long time, I never really felt like they did very much. But honestly, I drink, I drink Magic Mag. And I feel I feel like it's having an effect. And sometimes there's like, it's not really placebo. But this is great to hear that there's really the science really behind what it's doing in different formats. And, and really accessibility. I think it's such an interesting thing, because especially in the herbal world, I have found some times that folks that are really small don't want to talk about the mass consumer or don't want to think about like getting into mass distribution, or like, you know, going into like these sort of big bad retailers, you know, Whole Foods now being owned by Amazon could be thought of as one of those. But one of the things I remember talking to some folks about it, when we were at Traditional Medicinals was like, well, if our focus is we want to make herbs accessible to everyone, then it's alienating to just like put it in a in a little mom and pop a little grocery store and put it in a format that may or may scare people off, right? How do we how do we bring if truly we want to bring herbs to the people, then we have to think of all the people and where do they what are their touch points. And some of these folks may only be you know, and this is one of the reasons back at at Traditional Medicinals when there was a lot of debate of us in Walmart and Target. But the reality is that a lot of you know, the vast majority of American consumers shop at Walmart, and it felt like actually fulfilling the mission to allow them to have access to herbs that they wouldn't otherwise in a place like that. What do you think about that position?
Lauren: I'm with you. Yeah, I mean, all of those points, like absolutely. There's even been some like, you know, I mean, definitely internal conversations of like, what are our ethics around going into Whole Foods in light of it being owned by Amazon. And I think it comes back to exactly what you just said is like, we have to offer it where people we have to meet people where they are and and that's such a good point is like we have to make it available to everyone, not just in these niche shops that people are maybe even intimidated by the other piece of that is at Whole Foods, because they are you know, this corporate behemoth we have the opportunity to offer it, you know, we have we can have sales on it. We they have thoroughly biannual supplement department sale and it's like, that's when people shop that's like how people adopt new behaviors. And ultimately, our mission. My mission of starting the company, was that I want every single person on the planet to have some sort of connection to plants and herbal practice. If they want.
Daniella Allam: If they want yeah, and yeah, making that an entry point for people. And I think also the point of pictures is so interesting too. Because I think that you're seeing you know more people now are starting to have tinctures which I think a long time. It was you know, kept launching tinctures different brands. I remember Traditional Medicinals bought Urban Moonshine had issues getting those tinctures sold. I think part of what I think is driving that success is just having better Under products out there, you know, I think some tinctures are just like frankly, disgusting. And but yours in particular, actually, you know, some of them might have that herbal taste, but it really kind of feels balanced. So how do you think about formulation in terms of the herbs that you use? And in terms of the flavor profiles that you're going after? Especially something like tinctures, but also in particular with like Rose Colored Glasses, because to me that that product was a revelation, because I was the kind of consumer that I assumed all tinctures tasted gross. So I kind of like let them to the side. And it was sort of a thing where I would put it in my mouth and like, close my eyes and be like, if I have to then I must. And then that tincture or that product where I don't know if we could call it a tincture? Is it a glycerite? I'm not sure what the herbal term is I'm really kind of changed blew my mind because I was like, Wait, herbs can taste good like this? It was a revelation. Why did you decide to make that one like that?
Lauren: Wow, that's awesome. The Rose Colored Glasses is an glycerite. It's a liquid extract, that's alcohol free. And it tastes like a rose syrup. Right? So you can use it. It's like really versatile, just since it's an auditory podcast. And so it tastes like I had been working with Rose, I was going through a period of like really intense burnout. And I was having a really hard time relaxing. And I went ahead some rose tea and I couldn't believe how it just kind of like melted away my resistance to relaxing is like the best way I can describe it. It was where I was like, you know, I was like, you know, you can like intellectualize rest, just like you can. Yeah. And so I think I was intellectualizing rest, and I was like, I'm laying down, I'm laying down. I'm like laying down, but my brain was like, so my brain.
Daniella Allam: My brain is not laying down.
Lauren: Brain is like in the mall or wherever. And yeah, so I really, I was like, Okay, great. And I think it was something where I always want to work with like really safe, gentle and familiar herbs. And I want it to be a pleasant experience. And so yeah, I think just having something sweet in your pocket that can give you that resistance to relaxation, because I found, you know, in my history, I've gone through like periods of like Generalized Anxiety Disorder, that kind of stuff. And sometimes things that are really relaxing, like borderline sedative can be very activating and triggering it from like a safety perspective. So I think that rose I really loved and it's very safe and gentle for everyone because it it feels very comforting and nourishing, like nurturing and all of these things. So I don't think that's really a good answer. But I think I just
Daniella Allam: No, I love that because I think they just shows where that came from. And I think it Well, I had no idea about that. But that's sort of that's been my experience with that product, as well as just like this is for one, you know, the smell the flavor, just it just it's an easy thing to do. There's like the barriers are removed. And I think that when we talk about the mission of making herbs accessible, right, like that is so important from a consumer standpoint. And I know like, it sounds to me that you've also used a lot of consumer insights and learning from the folks buying how what role has that played in the innovation and the products you've launched? Maybe products that you've discontinued? What what's the role of, of the consumers in the folks buying the product been on the business?
Lauren: It's been a huge driving force. I know, like, I want to say maybe 2019 or 2020. We did in 2019, we did a series of customer interviews, and we interviewed 100 customers who are like our top purchasing customers, and we just like ask them a series of questions like when did you start taking herbs? What brands do you use besides Wooden Spoon? What's your experience? Like, what's your day to day life? Like, how do our products fit into your life? It's one of those things where, you know, you hear people talk about doing things that don't scale, this was our thing that, you know, you can never scale, but it was so insightful. And we still use like those interviews, you know, as like inspiration for all the new things that we do. And so I also feel like our customer service inbox has been like the greatest source of inspiration. And then I think that coupled with just what people are asking for, you know, people were like, we really would love a matcha we would buy any matcha you made we just want a matcha Oh, we want another flavor of herbal coffee. Oh, you know, we would love another flavor of magnesium. Oh, did you ever think about doing a magnesium like glycinate Did you ever think about you know, so we get a lot of recommendations so you get a lot of people who have a lot of ideas
Daniella Allam: A lot of ideas and opinions.
Lauren: A lot of ideas and opinions.. And I love that I welcome it because I think for me so I think for me like product innovation now is like line extensions of what works Obviously number one. And then number two is what we keep getting requests for. So fo, for example, on February 1, 2024, we relaunched an old favorite, our Rose Cocoa. So that is rose petals, single-origin cacao sourced by Diaspora Co. from Oakland. I mean, they're famous and they love them. Yes, love them. And then Shatavari, and vanilla. So we released that because we kept getting so many inquiries, in our inbox, and it's been discontinued for two years. And so we were just tallying and tallying and tallying, and I was like, I was like, Okay, come back to me when the tally hits 50 or whatever. Okay, cool. Come back to me, it hits 100. And it didn't, it did, and it did. So then we were like, okay, cool. Why don't we do a small batch in a better way with like a sourcing story and like something that we're very excited about? So we just launched that. And, yeah,
Daniella Allam: I love I love that story, though. Because I think a lot of times, I see some brands that have very visionary CEOs in the brand, that the vision sometimes overtakes a little bit what the consumers are saying. And that sometimes can can be like shooting yourself in the foot long term, right? And like not listening to the folks that are actually bringing this into your life is my you know, I'm willing to always die on the Hill of consumer insights, because they'll tell you what they want, you know, and they're the ones really the driving the engine of your business, right. Without them, the business doesn't exist. And so I think this is such a great example of like, you know, there, there was a product that you discontinued, and now the fact that so many people ask for it, it's back on. And it just, it just, to me is the right way to go about doing business. And I think it ensures longevity to right that you're not just like, I'm sticking to my guns and I'm, I'm gonna sell beeswax candles forever and ever and ever and ever, even though I don't know about if people like maybe those did get a lot of sales. But you know, if those people are not connecting with them, I don't care. I'm sticking to my guns, because I think it's really important. And being able to adapt to the business to like changing consumer demands and needs.
Lauren: It's been interesting, too, because we have a couple products that have been bestsellers at times, and then kind of fall off and you're like, Okay, great. Well, why did they fall off? Is it flavor profile? Is it the naming convention? Is it all of these things that we've experimented with? So I think, you know, then you have like, a couple learning moments before you like retire something. And obviously, there's like margin to consider. And then also, I do, I do need my like, one weird Tinkery thing at a time. So like, right now like noodling on a product that's like, so it's so weird, but like, you sometimes just have to, like, create, and tell people what it is and why. And if you're excited, they'll be excited to see.
Daniella Allam: right, because I don't know if anybody was people, were people asking you for magnesium. Yeah, because I don't think that's like a common thing that herbalists really do, right?
Lauren: That's what I mean. So like, I knew that people need it, and I knew that I can stand behind it 1,000,000% and convince people why they needed it. And I think also it was like, Right Place Right Time, which I credit for so much of our success, right place, right time and passion. Like, I think if I have if once one has nothing, it has my like neurotic passion for like plants. And yeah, so magnesium was a good example of that, where I'm also Yes, consumer insights, but also kind of anticipating their needs before they ask.
Daniella Allam: But I think that's also part of consumer insights, right as being like, what is a need that is unmet, or that is not being met in the best ways, and they might not be able to formulate it. Right? They might not be able to say I need a magnesium powder that turns blue, and
Lauren: We got you then.
Daniella Allam: But you're like, I know, you've been struggling with XYZ issue. Right. And it's, I think, also, the fun thing about herbalism. And supplement, I think is that you can really lean in on the need states, right? Like, they're like you said, there's like sleep stress. These are very common, very widespread needs that a lot of folks need support on. So like, give me anything, you know,
Lauren: they are I think it's really funny, because like the marketing team, they're always like, people just want to know, if it's gonna help them and with what, and I'm like, Yeah, but I want to tell them about, you know, how its formed in the ocean. Okay, sweetie, and they put me to bed and
Daniella Allam: they just want to know, what's it gonna do for me? Totally. And then I'll be interested in the other stuff. Right, right. And, you know, it's a it's a, it's a thing that so every brand I think goes to is that, especially one that's mission-driven, that cares about things like sustainability, that there's like other stories to tell, beyond just like, here's the product, what's it going to do for you that sometimes it can be frustrating, and it's like, they don't care about the sustainability story, or they don't care about you know, I see this a lot, but it's like, I view those parts of the story as as loyalty drivers, right and helping people stay within the within the ecosystem of the brand, and getting them to know the brand and the brand mission more, is there going to really be the thing that drives purchase? Maybe not. But yeah, it's so funny. This is always the marketing, the marketing quandary that we, that we get as marketers in this space. So I wanted to also talk about this transition. So I think, you know, you're running a really successful business at this point. And I wanted to talk about what was that transition? Like, like, when you look back to the last 10 years? How did you more from like, herbalist, you know, at a farmers market to now CEO running a big, bad, amazing, you know, badass company that is going to be nationally distributed a Whole Foods? Did you have to have mindset shifts that allowed you to blossom into that role? And did you have to maybe acquire some new skills that you didn't know, like, back then 10 years ago?
Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, I'm, it's, it's a different. It's a totally different beast than it started, as you know, as have started, I think I have, and I'm grateful for that. I mean, I think running a business is like one of the greatest personal growth levers that possibly can be, you know, akin to like raising a child, I've had to learn. And every year is different. Every year, there's kind of like a new skill set. I've had to learn finance, I've had to learn leadership, I've had to learn how to manage a team, I've had to learn conflict resolution, I've had to learn scaling products, we've had to learn contract manufacturing, sourcing at scale, pricing margins, like none of this was factors. I was like making Flower Essences in my yard, you know, I didn't know, I didn't know any of these things. I didn't know how to run a business outside of the basic. Is there a profit, keep going? And like, make it look cute, make it taste good. So yeah, I mean, I think it's a constant learning process. I think the learning curve has been a straight line up, like insane, but I'm really grateful. I feel like, especially as a female entrepreneur, I feel very supported and nurtured by those who came before me and like, very strong women in power, who have rallied around me to tell me what they know, like people who don't get keep people who will lend an ear who are like founders, as well, people. So I really feel like learning things myself and not being afraid to like, be bad at something or fail or like learn as I go, coupled with like, a really robust community of people who all lift each other up. That has been, that's been how I've learned and how I will always continue to run a business.
Daniella Allam: Wow, I love that. Yeah, it really takes a village to right to have a successful business. And I think, you know, this this season of this podcast, we're focused on women-led mission-driven brands. So it's very apropos. And I think it is true that it's, it's a hard industry, right? It's a hard industry to crack. There's a lot of things to learn. It is a steep learning curve, you're gonna learn about distributing gonna learn about things that maybe you never thought you needed to learn about. But I think what your story also highlights is that willingness to be like, I don't know this thing, and I gotta go learn it now. Or I gotta have find somebody who can help me understand it. Instead of coming from a place of like, well, I know everything, and I'm the boss. And, you know, that's how companies tank real quick. Speaking of tanking, which is the opposite of what you're doing, you also successfully fundraised for the brand. And so I wanted to ask because a lot of entrepreneurs who are listening are thinking about that, and wanted to get your thoughts on what was that process? When did you know you needed to fundraise? And how did you go about finding the right partner or the right way to do it? Can you tell us about that story?
Lauren: Happy to Yeah, so we raised a modest amount in the grand scheme of how long we've been in business and like how much you've grown and what that growth is, looks like. I decided to raise capital in 2020. And then it came to fruition began to come to fruition in 2021. Essentially, we had been approached for a really exciting acquisition. And that of course, like brought forth and this was like before I had a team it was like me and a production helper and like you know one other person and yeah, it was really exciting. It was like Wowl, we really build something that people are paying attention to it was my dream acquirer if I you know, if I had thought of like, who would I want Wooden Spoon to tuck into it was like this, this company and ultimately didn't come to fruition, but it brought up all these questions for me of like, why would this even appeal to me? What's my goal for the business? Like what would this have or I really need look like and where else could that come from? Right? Because it was ultimately like, my decision to like, move forward move beyond that, and it came full circle later. But I think one thing was I want to make sure the business whatever that needs, like learning what like material and business looks and feels like who I could actually bring on to support me what that support could look and feel like and just really thinking through these questions. And I was I was also like, extremely burnt out. I had been doing the business effectively single handedly, like really scrappy, maybe some, like, I definitely had support and had people who worked with me, but it would none of us knew what we were doing. Right? I'd never worked with someone who like been a part of, of the natural products industry or even like a corporate business. So I was really burnt out and I was at a crossroads of like, I'm either gonna go really small, or I'm gonna go really big. No, because the middle ground is what I've been doing. And I was exhausted, right, boring, it was boring, because I was just like slogging through and got to a point where I was like, I was content to like, you know, live in a hut in the woods and see clients and like, be a real herbalist. You know, like, be an herbalist full time, or keep going with the momentum that we'd already built. Because we like how was momentum and I was like, I don't want this to go to waste. This is so special. I really like what we're doing could go really far. And I think my goal for the company is to be a legacy company is to be like Traditional Medicinals, around for 30 years Gaia Herbs around for 30 years and beyond. Yeah, so I was like, Okay, well, we need money to do that. What are we going to do, I need help, I need support. So I just threw myself into it, and ended up meeting people who I really appreciated and liked. And I think I started that process and recommend starting that process by talking to anyone you know, who's raised capital, and also understanding the landscape of financing and what your options are. So debt financing, bank financing all of these options. I mean, there's so many options out there. And I actually read at the recommendation of one of my advisors, oh, gosh, was it called, it's called like Venture Capital for Dummies, it was one of those things for Dummies, which is like silly, but honestly explain the landscape so well, and kind of like the risks and rewards of taking on venture capital. And I think the downside of taking on venture capital is like pressure to grow and growth at all costs. And like growth is your main motivator. But I was I had a friend who had raised capital, who was also a founder, and she was like, you can get money from anywhere. So you really have the luxury of deciding what kind of capital you want, like, Who do you want. So I was like, Okay, great. Like what I don't know is how to operate a company at scale. So why don't I look for people who are former exited operators, like so niche. But that was my intention is to fill my cap table and close my round with former exited operators.
Daniella Allam: Wow, that's very,
Lauren: and having that goal. And being able to tell people that was my goal opened a lot of doors for me. So I think fundraising really is one of those things where it's like, one door leads to the next to the next and next. And it's such a maze. But like, that's how it worked. So that's what ended up happening. And we were kind of like aligned with a really small, really early stage venture fund at the time. So that that helped a lot. And then so I raise half the round, and 2021 deployed it and kind of put my head down and went to work, and then hired hired my team and then finished the raise last year in 2023.
Daniella Allam: Wow!
Lauren: Once once I had a clear vision of like, where the funds needed to go. And like what about that first tranche being deployed worked.
Daniella Allam: Okay, I'm curious to dive into that. What worked? Where did you? Where did that funding go into, but I also want to touch on something that you said, which I think is such an important insight, which is that kind of know what you're looking for, before you go out there, right, like know what kind of financing you want, like learn these terms. I see a lot of entrepreneurs that are like, I just need funding, and it's like, well, what kind of funding like, how much do you need, right? And it's like, get these things figured out is I it's what I'm hearing you say, a little bit beforehand. So you can have a targeted approach. Otherwise, it's going to be like this huge net of it could be this could be that maybe I got a loan, maybe I do that. And I think that also aligns with, like, the vision of what you are going to do with those funds, right? Because it's really easy to be like, oh, I need a million dollars. And it's like, yeah, but where's that going to go and where it's going to be the best use of that funds to grow the business? So I'm curious and in that, that you mentioned of, of learning about that first tranche of funds, what were some of the learnings that you've gathered from that?
Lauren: Yeah, and I think to like to, to that point, like I've been building in the air so to speak like I never started with a business plan because I didn't think this I just never in my wildest dreams and so I think it is okay to like be building in the air like be visioning and like, you know, two or three year spurts, but I raised the first tranche for inventory. So stockouts were our number one revenue inhibitor, because we had these really successful sku's, but then we have money tied up in less successful sku's. So inventory of our best selling products was like the main focus, which like, I don't necessarily recommend it, this is a part of a bigger strategy. But I don't necessarily recommend like raising money to finance inventory, unless you're just like, early seed stage, like nothing's happened yet. And then secondarily, very scrappily, and manually hiring, a little bit of support. So I hired a second full time person who still is our only full time person on the team two years later, and two other halftime seats. So then we kind of had a distribution of labor, so we could tackle more things more effectively. And then from there, I knew so I knew the bigger strategy after 2020 was moving into bigger distribution and bigger accounts. Because before that, I mean, we were about 50%, wholesale, 50% direct to consumer. And as the pandemic went on, nearly all of our small mom and pop indie retailers closed down. And so that collapsed the business in a meaningful way. So we went from 100% growth to like, 20% growth, because this huge, you know, the bottom fell out, everyone was struggling. And so I realized we can't build our roadmap on independent shops anymore. It's just too
Daniella Allam: Volatile.
Lauren: Exactly. Thank you. Yeah, too volatile. So I was like, Okay, how are we going to get? How are we gonna get into Whole Foods basically, and in grocery, in general, natural grocery, and like, how are we going to stay on shelf? And how are we going to like, execute sell through? Right? So so that is the bigger strategy. So then looking at our looking at our current packaging, I was like, Okay, this needs an overhaul, and we need we need the big guns to do it. And I think I think that like the product, the story, the brand, coupled with the visuals is the secret. And I mean, I think that's the secret.
Daniella Allam: We're spilling our secrets.
Lauren: I think we're proving that out, you know, because the year after our rebrand, landed, we grew 102%. And that was like, without a team without any other part of the business growing. So that was the initial tranche. And then so then once we launched the rebrand, so then we spent all of our time building that up. That's like, it was the number one focus. And once that hit magnesium launch with that, and then I had to raise again.
Daniella Allam: You had to raise again.
Lauren: We had to raise again, to support inventory scale for our heroe sku like our breakout hero SKU was like, exponentially selling. So I had I raised Yeah, it was a quarter of a million dollars to support inventory of our hero SKU. And that was successful.
Daniella Allam: And that is paid out now. I'm sure Yeah, with that grant. Something that you also mentioned, so I'm sure the rebrand process was not cheap.
Lauren: It wasn't and it was worth every penny. And I would do it again, in a heartbeat. It took 13 months of grueling attention to detail. And we have like a custom font. And we have so many consumer insights, and so much psychology and so much, nothing was not considered, everything was considered. I am so grateful that I invested in the agency we worked with, because the output was just so thoughtful, and I feel like and they said this to initially they're like to work with a pre existing brand with like a really specific story. And ethos is such a challenge versus like creating a brand based on three key words. Right. Sounds great. I think they really nailed it. And I think it feels like the ultimate expression of all of the work that I've been building towards.
Daniella Allam: Yeah, and I think it it also proves that like sometimes like those those types of investments might hurt in terms of, of money in terms of energy in terms of resources that you have to put against them but but you're doing it for this bigger strategy and for this bigger strategic reason, and now you're seeing it play out in real life. And I think it sometimes I think some entrepreneurs have this like trepidation about like doing a jump like that and be like, can I invest in in in this at this point, like it's fine enough, like my branding is good enough. But that might be the thing that's like preventing you from getting to that next level, if that's the level that you're looking for. Right? So sometimes, I think your story is is is so powerful because it shows the importance of sometimes having faith in your decisions like saying no to Whole Foods regionally, like investing in packaging, investing in a huge rebrand process, launching a brand new product that never existed out in the market before. Right like big risks, but but we're seeing that that courage and that risk play, pay out for the brand and for the growth of the brand. So, good job, Miss CEO.
Lauren: Oh, yeah, I appreciate that framing.
Daniella Allam: Um, let's talk about as we sort of start to wrap up, I wanted to ask you what advice you would give other entrepreneurs that look at you. And they're like, I want to be Lauren, like, because I do think you are sort of an example, especially in the herbal world, in the supplement world of building such a successful company, what would you what advice would you give them the folks that are like in that early stage, and they're like, in five years, or, you know, five years, I want to be where Lauren is. Buckle up,
Lauren: buckle up is usually thinking about this. And I appreciate the compliment. And the question, I think, I think if you're just starting out, I really encourage you to experiment and to just like, follow what makes you happy and what lights you up. And that is the magic. And I think, to your point, just now of like taking risks, I think don't be afraid to take risks, I think, truly big risk, big reward, like I love to play big. I love that feeling of being scared. So don't shy away from that, like, that's where the magic is, in all areas of life, like do the thing that pushes your growth edge. Because people feel that I don't mean that in an esoteric way. But I think people feel like the reason people connect with brands, right, this is like marketing is like people feel what goes into it the intention and like what yeah, there's like so much feeling and psychology baked into it. So I think experiment as much as you can have as much fun as you can. Because if you really want to start a company and make it like something that sustains you in your life, it's gonna be a lot of hard work. And I mean, this is cliche advice, but I found it very true is like, you have to have your passion, your why because when you're hit with a lawsuit, when you're doing taxes, when you're all of these struggle, pieces are definitely going to come. And you just have to be like, That's okay. Because like, I love plants, and like people love what I do. And it really helps with both. So you have to have that, like, anchor in a passionate why, and then have fun and experiment in the early days, see what works. And I would say if I could do it again, I would, I would focus faster. So experiment hard and focus fast. Oh
Daniella Allam: I love that and stick to your and remember and stick to that passion. And that why? I think sometimes folks think, Okay, I have a great idea. And I just want to make a lot of money. And that will only take you so far, right? Because when the going gets tough, right? When the money is maybe not trickling in, or when there's things that you have to spend a lot of money on, it's going to be really easy for you to say, Okay, I'm done. I'm done with this, but connecting to a deeper Why Why am I doing this? Why does this product? Why does this brand need to exist in the world? Why does the world need it? And then I think that that is an immediate motivator back to like, Okay, let me get myself together and like keep keep trucking along. Because I really believe in the mission of what we're trying to do. And I think in terms of the branding, what I really love also about about what you've done with the brand is that it it also, you know, when you look at it, and when you know when when somebody knows you like I do, you can see, you know, your essence also imbued in the brand. But it's not to the sense where this is like, it's not like a celebrity brand, where like the entirety of the brand is like the person that founded it. I think your brand was like a really great balance of having your essence, your vision, that infusion of of your personality, the things you love Appalachia, you know, like all of this, all of this essence of who you are, like cottage vibes, you know, cottage vibes and Marin. But, but also a very strong business standpoint and a very strong positioning in terms of consumer insights. Right. So all of that marriage, I think, makes the brand so compelling to folks as well, because it's not all resting on you, but it does have a part of you as well. But I think the other part that I loved about your your advice was the focus fast. That's something I see. I also see, particularly with herbalists perhaps the most, where folks are like, Let's do everything under the sun, and we're gonna give them like from head to toe from in to out, you know, every single piece is going to be covered by our products. And I think yeah,
Lauren: we can because we know a lot
Daniella Allam: because you know, everything has eyelashes, everything. There's an herb. Exactly, yeah, but tell me about why that's a big piece of advice. You give folks to focus fast
Lauren: because I did that because I did I was like forever I was like, Oh, we could do this. We could we could we could we could we could and it's all so fun. I think it's so inspiring. And when you are passionate, you're like, think of all the things and it is it's like eyelashes, tea, like you name it, really do it. But like you name it
Daniella Allam: You name it, I got you, there's a plant for that.
Lauren: But I think it's like, once you I mean muttering the business from like, experimental Farmers Market stage to now it's like, really learning what it means to scale a product, which is like, so capital intensive. And it's like, if you can just focus, find what works and focus on that you will make your life easier. And then you can like experiment in your home kitchen and make like herbal brownies or whatever. But it's like, I think that is my advice. Having done it all the hard way.
Daniella Allam: Make it easier for yourself. I love that. As we wrap up. I'd love to hear any exciting products, campaigns, initiatives, we'd like to highlight from Wooden Spoon Herbs, we already talked about the launch at Whole Foods. So everybody make sure to go support Wooden Spoon Herbs and try the exclusive capsules, I sure will be that Brain Bloom. Don't we all need that? I seriously gonna need that. But anything else you want to highlight?
Lauren: Oh my gosh, well, I have been toying with the idea of starting a an herbal podcast. So that's kind of a project I'm working on, as well as some more like publishing focus things. So stay tuned. Stay tuned. Stay tuned, I think yeah, I'm really just heads down working on whole foods and making that successful and telling everyone I know especially about the two exclusive capsules, I love them so much. The Brain Bloom is one of my favorite products we've ever put out into the market. The Magic Magnesium I'm still in love with and so we're actually working on a smaller travel size of the magnesium that will be here in 2024. So that's really exciting. And the packaging is done name like the packaging is cute already with the travel size ones are really beautiful. So I
Daniella Allam: like in a sachet basically. Oh, I literally was thinking about that because I haven't been able to travel with mine because I'm like, it's a little too bulky for like, trips and I'm like, I wish there was that. It sounds like enough people read my mind. delivered that message
Lauren: We got pictures of the magnesium portion into baggies. I went through. And I was like, oh, sorry, let me
Daniella Allam: give it to me in a different format.
Lauren: I think they're so cute. They're so fun. I love traveling with like, you know your herbs on you and you just feel like resourced at all times. And you're in the airport, you're making a little potion. So yeah, that's why we're working on.
Daniella Allam: Potions and lotions and potions. And speaking of also a new product that you launched that I haven't tried yet, but I'm going to make an order right now is the Matcha Latte. So another little one that you can you would take a on the go.
Lauren: It's a funcional dose of Cordyceps and lion's mane. So it's great for cognitive support and focus in memory and
Daniella Allam: not just your regular matcha lotte
Lauren: and it's in a base of powdered oat milk actually, which is so exciting and that was grown in Kentucky. It's a very beautiful latte that has like a really beautiful sourcing story. The matcha is stunning. It's like bright green. It tastes so like mild and vetal. I love it
Daniella Allam: Wow, I'm so excited. Well, thank you so much, Lauren for joining me. Such a lovely conversation. I'm sure it was super valuable to all of your fans and all of our listeners.
Lauren: Thanks for having me.
Daniella Allam: Oh, all right. Bye bye.